Concepts: Today's similarities and differences to the HV

penny wrote:That was one of the thrilling scenes. It showed some U-boat tactics I had never seen. After being forced to surface, the U-boat Captain put his boat on a course that kissed the destroyer. The sub was keeping pace with the destroyer while touching hulls. The destroyer’s big guns could not depress far enough to shoot the U-boat that was riding mere inches from its hull. The U-boat captain’s skills were amazing. Gutsy move.

If an LD got so close to a ship that it couldn’t shoot it, it’d have to be inside the wedge kissing hulls???

Seems to me that the sub and LD would have the same issues there.

They aren't fast enough to hold that position for long because the other ship can out-accelerate them and get back into a range where they can bring their weapons to bear.

But more importantly, both are quite vulnerable to the maneuvers of the ship they're so close to. Against a sub that close the destroyer would merely need to put the helm hard over and the much larger DD would cripple or sink the sub in the ensuing collision. And an Honorverse ships with an LD inside it's wedge merely needs to pitch abruptly and it'd vaporize the LD against the impenetrable inner face of an impeller wedge plane.

(Now the world wars there were a few cases where subs ended up that close -- but the escort tended to react by ramming or spraying down the sub's deck with small arms and AA guns. And a few other instances of smaller warships pulling that off against much larger ones -- but in those cases the relative speeds were closer and usually in the smaller ship's favor. Like a DD vs a CA)

penny wrote:Question: Could a Ghost slip inside the wedge via several gun ports that are malfunctioning?

I think you'd need several sidewall generators out before even something as small as a Ghost could slip in closer than the sidewalls. A gunport is going to be on the order of a couple of square meters , and a Ghost is going to be at least 15x even in its smallest profile.

That said, you can get a good long ways inside a wedge before you reach the sidewalls. Even a CL or large DD has a wedge 100 km wide (so reaching nearly 50 km out from the hull), while the sidewalls are only about 10 km out from the hull. So even small warships have 10s of km that's inside the wedge but outside the sidewalls. An SD's is about 300 km wide and the latest SD(P)s are pushing 340 km -- so they've got over a hundred km between the edge of the wedge and the sidewalls.

Of course not even a Ghost could hide from sensors that close -- and as noted above, even if all the ship's weapons were disabled all it'd have to do to kill anything inside its wedge is pitch hard (up or down; doesn't mater) and let the other ship collide with the interior of the wedge. (A roll might do it too; but the pitch should be harder for things to avoid)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:That was one of the thrilling scenes. It showed some U-boat tactics I had never seen. After being forced to surface, the U-boat Captain put his boat on a course that kissed the destroyer. The sub was keeping pace with the destroyer while touching hulls. The destroyer’s big guns could not depress far enough to shoot the U-boat that was riding mere inches from its hull. The U-boat captain’s skills were amazing. Gutsy move.

If an LD got so close to a ship that it couldn’t shoot it, it’d have to be inside the wedge kissing hulls???

Seems to me that the sub and LD would have the same issues there.

They aren't fast enough to hold that position for long because the other ship can out-accelerate them and get back into a range where they can bring their weapons to bear.

But more importantly, both are quite vulnerable to the maneuvers of the ship they're so close to. Against a sub that close the destroyer would merely need to put the helm hard over and the much larger DD would cripple or sink the sub in the ensuing collision. And an Honorverse ships with an LD inside it's wedge merely needs to pitch abruptly and it'd vaporize the LD against the impenetrable inner face of an impeller wedge plane.

(Now the world wars there were a few cases where subs ended up that close -- but the escort tended to react by ramming or spraying down the sub's deck with small arms and AA guns. And a few other instances of smaller warships pulling that off against much larger ones -- but in those cases the relative speeds were closer and usually in the smaller ship's favor. Like a DD vs a CA)

cthia wrote:Question: Could a Ghost slip inside the wedge via several gun ports that are malfunctioning?

I think you'd need several sidewall generators out before even something as small as a Ghost could slip in closer than the sidewalls. A gunport is going to be on the order of a couple of square meters , and a Ghost is going to be at least 15x even in its smallest profile.

That said, you can get a good long ways inside a wedge before you reach the sidewalls. Even a CL or large DD has a wedge 100 km wide (so reaching nearly 50 km out from the hull), while the sidewalls are only about 10 km out from the hull. So even small warships have 10s of km that's inside the wedge but outside the sidewalls. An SD's is about 300 km wide and the latest SD(P)s are pushing 340 km -- so they've got over a hundred km between the edge of the wedge and the sidewalls.

Of course not even a Ghost could hide from sensors that close -- and as noted above, even if all the ship's weapons were disabled all it'd have to do to kill anything inside its wedge is pitch hard (up or down; doesn't mater) and let the other ship collide with the interior of the wedge. (A roll might do it too; but the pitch should be harder for things to avoid)

The destroyer's captain did mention before the confrontation "we will ram the sub if we have to." Although, seeing tankers and subs explode, I'd think a spectacular explosion of something that is riding so close to your hull could be fatal for the attacking ship.

Sensors could see a ship inside the wedge easily IF those sensors or the people operating those sensors will care to waste scans on the insides of the wedge. And eyeballing the Ghost with the naked eye from an observation deck might not be possible with the smart paint. Other GA ships cannot see inside a wedge.

About that pitch or roll that could destroy a Ghost inside the wedge. A tractor beam(s) would prevent the Ghost from swinging too far away from the warship. But then, the Ghost's compensator could become a factor at those accelerations, but then, am I correct that everything inside a wedge is compensated?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:"Look! Dicky forced her to the surface. She must be hurt!"


I suppose as far as an LD goes, forcing her to surface would be causing her spider drive to go down.

Not really -- there isn't really an proper analogy. Though if a spider ship also carried an impeller drive bringing that drive up might be a bit closer.

A sub that surfaces is easier to see (optical and radar now also come into play; not just active/passive sonar), faster (well in the WWII era; that's switched today), can be engaged by more types of weapons (guns, rockets, regular bombs), but can also bring more weapons of its own into play (in the WWI/II era) -- deck guns, AA guns, small arms and grenades.

And LD whose spider drive goes down is harder to see, slower (well; lower acceleration), and doesn't change what weapons either side cane use. OTOH a LD that somehow brought up a wedge (or sails) is easier to see. (Though due to her size isn't any quicker, and except for being easier to see doesn't affect what weapons either side is physically capable of using)

Theemile wrote:Another analogy (Though again, not completely accurate) would be forcing the Spider unit to use it's Bubble Sidewall; it's now on the "surface" - radiating for all to see it, exposed to everyone's fire, it's primary drive system disengaged or limited. Which is not to say it's defenseless (it has the bubble sidewall) or disarmed (it can still fire weapons), but by popping the bubble, it's almost a statement that the spider was forced into a situation it was not able to handle, and "surfacing" into standard combat is a last resort for survival.

In WWII the subs had to come up for air and to recharge the batteries. So, at one point when it was obvious that they were recharging batteries for an attack, it was mentioned as a victory that the destroyer had forced the sub back under.

Forcing an LD to dive would be to cause her to activate her spider drive. Though I fail to see what rare case could exist where causing an LD to dive can be considered a win.

penny wrote:The destroyer's captain did mention before the confrontation "we will ram the sub if we have to." Although, seeing tankers and subs explode, I'd think a spectacular explosion of something that is riding so close to your hull could be fatal for the attacking ship.

Subs dramatically exploding is basically just Hollywood nonsense. Many ships rammed subs and as far as I know not one of those subs exploded. They "just" filled with water and sank. That said, ramming wasn't a risk-free maneuver -- you were crashing into a very stoutly built metal hull and that'd crumped the impact area of your own hull up pretty good and usually start some level of water ingress and flooding. A ship that rammed a sub usually needed to quickly head in for repairs and could expect to spend some time in drydock getting its hull fixed up. Therefore ramming was discouraged except as a last resort (the Navy wanted its ship out hunting other subs, not stuck in the body & fender shop); but not out of any fear of the sub exploding.

penny wrote:In WWII the subs had to come up for air and to recharge the batteries. So, at one point when it was obvious that they were recharging batteries for an attack, it was mentioned as a victory that the destroyer had forced the sub back under.

Forcing an LD to dive would be to cause her to activate her spider drive. Though I fail to what rare case could exist where causing an LD to dive can be considered a win.

The main reason it was a (small) win just to force a WWII sub under was they was too slow submerged to keep up with a convoy. So if you forced one down the ships could just steam away from it.

Take the typical German Class VII U-boat: It could make 17.7 knots on the surface but only 7.6 knots submerged (and its surfaced range was 8,500 nmi at 10 knots vs submerged range 80 nmi at 4 knots -- I believe those are its best cruising speeds; but I did just swipe all these numbers from Wiki. Going faster would reduce its range dramatically)


(That reduced speed and endurance of a submerged sub was actually one of the most useful things that convoy air cover did. Even if the planes or blimps weren't very effective at attacking a sub their mere presence would force it to dive -- dramatically reducing its ability to attack).


And even if the escort couldn't stick around to try to sink the sub if it held it down for long the sub would either have to give up or else make a long high speed run on the surface to work around the convoy and back into attack position. And during that run it'd be more easily spotted and potentially attacked.

That's just not analogous to forcing an LD to activate her spider drive. There isn't really anything for an LD that'd be analogous to forcing a (WWII) sub to submerge. (Even somehow forcing the LD to shut down its drive isn't really an analog; though it might be a bit closer)

penny wrote:Sensors could see a ship inside the wedge easily IF those sensors or the people operating those sensors will care to waste scans on the insides of the wedge. And eyeballing the Ghost with the naked eye from an observation deck might not be possible with the smart paint. Other GA ships cannot see inside a wedge.

One ship can see through its own wedge, but is unlikely to see through any other ship's wedges, even their allies.

Anyway, a ship is not going to waste cycles scanning its own wedge... but it's going to be constantly scanning around itself much further out and if there's something the size of a Ghost inside of it, it's going to be blocking a lot of what's on the other side. It's going to occlude a lot of stars. At this range, it's not a point source, so it can't simply radiate what's on the other side, because different angles from the other ship should see different things. "Hey skipper, I can't get a good return on our bogey 5 million km out because there's a 200 m blob 50 km away blocking my sensors. What should I do?"

This is even assuming only passive sensors. If they tried to do an active scan, that thing 50 km away would return so much radiation it would probably even overwhelm the receivers. It would be unmistakeable.

Moreover, just how the hell would it have got this close? There's no discontinuity in space, so for it to get to 50 km away, it must have come through 200,000, then 100,000, then 50,000, so on. At some point, scanning would have burned through the stealth. More importantly, why wouldn't the Ghost have fired earlier?

About that pitch or roll that could destroy a Ghost inside the wedge. A tractor beam(s) would prevent the Ghost from swinging too far away from the warship. But then, the Ghost's compensator could become a factor at those accelerations, but then, am I correct that everything inside a wedge is compensated?

The compensator field does not extend to the entire wedge volume.

I'm sure the target ship would notice a tractor locking on it too. Again, the radiation would be unmistakable.

You're also only considering a ship moving ballistically, in a straight line. If the target ship is accelerating and doing normal zig-zag that any warship should be doing in space, it would likely ram the Ghost without even intending to.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Moreover, just how the hell would it have got this close? There's no discontinuity in space, so for it to get to 50 km away, it must have come through 200,000, then 100,000, then 50,000, so on. At some point, scanning would have burned through the stealth. More importantly, why wouldn't the Ghost have fired earlier?

This is a really humorous post. Bear with me. It reminds me of every time a Solarian Captain gets a report, well, this sort of exchange. "Are you saying they managed to get an FTL platform and drone how close? And we didn't know it was there? How many of them?"

So, the answer to your question is "killer stealth".

The humorous part comes when whoever's responsibility it is to operate the scanners must feel incompetent. The question is never asked but it is lingering in the midst of the bridge. Hanging in the air.

"You mean you failed to detect something that is right up our ass?"

How can you answer that when it is your job to know.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Moreover, just how the hell would it have got this close? There's no discontinuity in space, so for it to get to 50 km away, it must have come through 200,000, then 100,000, then 50,000, so on. At some point, scanning would have burned through the stealth. More importantly, why wouldn't the Ghost have fired earlier?

penny wrote:
This is a really humorous post. Bear with me. It reminds me of every time a Solarian Captain gets a report, well, this sort of exchange. "Are you saying they managed to get an FTL platform and drone how close? And we didn't know it was there? How many of them?"

So, the answer to your question is "killer stealth".

No, it isn't. There's no way the stealth can hide a ship at 1000 km from the target, let alone 50 km. Moreover, it would be completely stupid to get to within 1000 km of the target, let alone inside the wedge. If the Ghost then fires and destroys the target, it's liable to be blasted by radiation from the exploding ship and debris, which in turn will compromise its own stealth. Getting that close is stupid: it opens up for detection before or after firing.

And you didn't answer the other question: why wouldn't the Ghost fire sooner?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Moreover, just how the hell would it have got this close? There's no discontinuity in space, so for it to get to 50 km away, it must have come through 200,000, then 100,000, then 50,000, so on. At some point, scanning would have burned through the stealth. More importantly, why wouldn't the Ghost have fired earlier?

penny wrote:This is a really humorous post. Bear with me. It reminds me of every time a Solarian Captain gets a report, well, this sort of exchange. "Are you saying they managed to get an FTL platform and drone how close? And we didn't know it was there? How many of them?"

So, the answer to your question is "killer stealth".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, it isn't. There's no way the stealth can hide a ship at 1000 km from the target, let alone 50 km. Moreover, it would be completely stupid to get to within 1000 km of the target, let alone inside the wedge. If the Ghost then fires and destroys the target, it's liable to be blasted by radiation from the exploding ship and debris, which in turn will compromise its own stealth. Getting that close is stupid: it opens up for detection before or after firing.

And you didn't answer the other question: why wouldn't the Ghost fire sooner?

Turns out there is an amusing answer for why the Ghost did not fire sooner: it couldn't, because it has no offensive weaponry. From Mission of Honor chapter 9:

The Ghost-class ships had no offensive armament at all. They were designed to do precisely what Apparition was doing at this moment, and there was no point pretending they'd be able to fight their way out of trouble if the other side managed to find them in the first place. So they'd been equipped with every stealth system the fertile imaginations of Anastasia Chernevsky and the rest of the MAN's R&D establishment had been able to devise, packed into the smallest possible platform, and if that meant sacrificing armament, so be it. Even their anti-missile defenses represented little more than a token gesture, and everyone aboard Apparition was thoroughly aware of that fact.

So a better question is: why would a Ghost WANT to get that close (assuming that it was possible)?

Why assume a ship that has infiltrated the wedge of a warship is there to cause death and destruction? I dunno why a Ghost Captain’d want to risk that. An enquiring inquisitive mind simply wants to know if it is possible.

Perhaps the Ghost Captain got a tip that that ship is headed to Bolthole. And maybe there are ways that a Ghost ship can affix itself to the hull of a GA ship. I always thought there were random places on a ship where large items can be attached for transport in an emergency. Perhaps the spider “legs” can attach themselves to more than just the hyper wall.

Now, if you ask me how said Ghost ship that has managed to affix itself to an unobtrusive place against the hull AND has also managed to get a trip to the Darius System can extricate itself out of that situation without being seen, well, you got me there. I’m sure the captain has a plan. At any rate, do remember that a Ghost ship is a scout. Responsible for Intel. And this one is ghosting for a promotion.

But even if said captain manages all that AND manages to get away, how does it find it’s way back to civilization not knowing where it is?

penny wrote:But even if said captain manages all that AND manages to get away, how does it find it’s way back to civilization not knowing where it is?

The same way that the Harvest Joy studied the stars and discovered it was in the Talbott Quadrant. However, unlike it, the Ghost would not be able to use the wormhole to return, instead it would need to flee through hyperspace.