Torch and captured war ships

After the battle of Torch Roszak gave the Torches some of the surviving warships. We know that Manpower boobytrapped the ships with hidden demolition charges. What I'm wondering is how likely would it be that those charges would be found and dismantled.

It seems clear that the former peeps did not have the technical savvy to find them, nor the smarts to even think to look for them. Would Manticoran tech support and refitting crews be likely to find and disable/remove them?

Just something I thought about, and maybe biting someone on the ass.

Mycall4me wrote:After the battle of Torch Roszak gave the Torches some of the surviving warships. We know that Manpower boobytrapped the ships with hidden demolition charges. What I'm wondering is how likely would it be that those charges would be found and dismantled.

It seems clear that the former peeps did not have the technical savvy to find them, nor the smarts to even think to look for them. Would Manticoran tech support and refitting crews be likely to find and disable/remove them?

Just something I thought about, and maybe biting someone on the ass.

Definitely an open question.


Though I suppose it's not impossible that those captured ships will be overcome by events and Torch will end up never putting them into service -- instead getting offered better ships for their growing navy. (In which case the hidden scuttling charges would be basically moot)

Even equivalent class ships straight from Haven would be better than the PNE ones. They wouldn't have combat damage, they'd have more updates than the PNE was able to do, and they'd likely come with maintenance history and support. And, to date, Haven seems to have had to make due with barely warmed over pre-ceasefire units for DD-BC -- so they might be looking to retire those old classes anyway and replace them with something leveraging some of the GA tech they now have access to.
(So, given their support of Torch, might well be willing to do a deal where instead of sending Haven's newly retired hulls to the breakers they do a swap for an equivalent ex-PNE hull and scraps that while Torch gets the better upgraded hull)

Or Erewhon might offer them an irresistible deal on their Manti-lite designs; which should be more capable both offensively and defensively than the old Haven designs (whether the captured PNE ones, or more updated ones direct from Haven)

Or the GA might do them a deal on some ERM equipped DD-CAs; whether new export builds or things like Sag-Bs that are getting retired in favor of Sag-Cs in RMN service.

Mycall4me wrote:After the battle of Torch Roszak gave the Torches some of the surviving warships. We know that Manpower boobytrapped the ships with hidden demolition charges. What I'm wondering is how likely would it be that those charges would be found and dismantled.

It seems clear that the former peeps did not have the technical savvy to find them, nor the smarts to even think to look for them. Would Manticoran tech support and refitting crews be likely to find and disable/remove them?

Weren't they located in To End in Fire? It turned out to be software that could trigger the contents of a weapons magazine. They saw the malware activate, but the ship had all weapons removed for maintenance (or something like that?).

tlb wrote:

Mycall4me wrote:After the battle of Torch Roszak gave the Torches some of the surviving warships. We know that Manpower boobytrapped the ships with hidden demolition charges. What I'm wondering is how likely would it be that those charges would be found and dismantled.

It seems clear that the former peeps did not have the technical savvy to find them, nor the smarts to even think to look for them. Would Manticoran tech support and refitting crews be likely to find and disable/remove them?

Weren't they located in To End in Fire? It turned out to be software that could trigger the contents of a weapons magazine. They saw the malware activate, but the ship had all weapons removed for maintenance (or something like that?).

Yes, they were, see the June 1923 PD section of _To End in Fire_ (if you have an electronic copy, search for "Sorry to bother you, but..." for the start of the sequence). BTW, the fusion bottle was shut down as well or it would had blown up too.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Mycall4me wrote:After the battle of Torch Roszak gave the Torches some of the surviving warships. We know that Manpower boobytrapped the ships with hidden demolition charges. What I'm wondering is how likely would it be that those charges would be found and dismantled.

It seems clear that the former peeps did not have the technical savvy to find them, nor the smarts to even think to look for them. Would Manticoran tech support and refitting crews be likely to find and disable/remove them?

Just something I thought about, and maybe biting someone on the ass.

Definitely an open question.


Though I suppose it's not impossible that those captured ships will be overcome by events and Torch will end up never putting them into service -- instead getting offered better ships for their growing navy. (In which case the hidden scuttling charges would be basically moot)

Even equivalent class ships straight from Haven would be better than the PNE ones. They wouldn't have combat damage, they'd have more updates than the PNE was able to do, and they'd likely come with maintenance history and support. And, to date, Haven seems to have had to make due with barely warmed over pre-ceasefire units for DD-BC -- so they might be looking to retire those old classes anyway and replace them with something leveraging some of the GA tech they now have access to.
(So, given their support of Torch, might well be willing to do a deal where instead of sending Haven's newly retired hulls to the breakers they do a swap for an equivalent ex-PNE hull and scraps that while Torch gets the better upgraded hull)

Or Erewhon might offer them an irresistible deal on their Manti-lite designs; which should be more capable both offensively and defensively than the old Haven designs (whether the captured PNE ones, or more updated ones direct from Haven)

Or the GA might do them a deal on some ERM equipped DD-CAs; whether new export builds or things like Sag-Bs that are getting retired in favor of Sag-Cs in RMN service.

Will Torch even want equivalent units? Now that i think about it that fleet is probably too heavy for torch's offensive operations. I think they will want a fleet optimize towards raiding and intercepting ships. So a lot of really light units. On the other hand you do have the battle against the PNE which might make their military go for heavier units for defense.

In the timeline, Torch was not in any real position to try to field ships of the size handed over from the PNE. They just didn't have the numbers of trained officers and crews to do it. That's the primary reason they were using frigates.
By the time we get to TEIF they are still maintaining the former PNE ships but that's just preserving assets and using them for training while they expand their SDF/navy.

I don't recall anything in TEIF mentioning warships larger than frigates in active duty in the Torch navy. At this point, it stir might not even be practical for Torch to add something like one or two destroyers given the need to build up the numbers and experience of the navy. We also don't know what their needs are going to be. Raiding slaver locations probably is going to drop low since Manpower & Mesa are no longer in the genetic slave business though it is possible that there are/were satellite operation away from Mesa producing slaves.

You also have a question related to where they will go for getting larger ships even if they do eventual bring the former PNE ships into active duty. It has sounded -at least on the boards- like both Haven and Manticore (and so Grayson) are looking at retiring much of the existing legacy warships while we still don't know what those navies are looking at for the replacements with new builds from new designs. Other than ships which ships which because of age or relative lack of ability to upgrade to present state of the art equipment and weapons (like MDM missiles) a lot of the RMN or PRN ships are optimized for war fighting, not for commerce protection or long term patrolling or anti-piracy work. What is Torch going to do for system protection and will they need at least DD and CL level ships for commerce protection?
Is the Alignment likely to make another try at Torch? Ok, they are still annoyed that Torch got away from them but their larger problem is that wormhole. Besides, what are they going to use as a misdirection since Manpower etc is now longer a reasonable choice for the instigator of such an attack? Maya Autonomous Area isn't going to go after Torch and Erwhon isn't either. It's a trading partner and a conduit of sorts back to both Manticore and Haven.
Also at this point, we don't have any idea of anybody has a ship or ships watching the Torch wormhole for activity- on either side though it would be likely that the Alignment would have some sort of ambush force still parked where they murdered the Harvest Joy.
So many questions

Puidwen wrote:I think they will want a fleet optimize towards raiding and intercepting ships. So a lot of really light units. On the other hand you do have the battle against the PNE which might make their military go for heavier units for defense.

Even with the Silver Bullet problem, Mycroft and the Apollo system defense pods were sufficient to destroy a good part of the raiding SLN fleet at Beowulf. Throw in a bunch of LACs and that should handle any defensive worries that Torch might have. I do not think that intercepting ships will ever be a big part of their plans, but raiding orphaned Manpower locations might be. So a LAC carrier based on Erewhon's Masquerade class might become one of their larger ships.

A more interesting opportunity to me for Torch is some sort of an arrangement with the new Mesa and the pacified Galton. Either would eliminate any problems caused by a small workforce and population.

tlb wrote:Even with the Silver Bullet problem, Mycroft and the Apollo system defense pods were sufficient to destroy a good part of the raiding SLN fleet at Beowulf. Throw in a bunch of LACs and that should handle any defensive worries that Torch might have. I do not think that intercepting ships will ever be a big part of their plans, but raiding orphaned Manpower locations might be. So a LAC carrier based on Erewhon's Masquerade class might become one of their larger ships.

A more interesting opportunity to me for Torch is some sort of an arrangement with the new Mesa and the pacified Galton. Either would eliminate any problems caused by a small workforce and population.

Ah, but is Manticore and the GA going to release their highly classified top of the line system defense tech to Torch? (FTL fire control, FTL contro relays, brilliant control missiles, microfusion power plants, multi-drive missiles)?
I tend to doubt it.

Even Haven giving them a deal on old Moriarty systems as those get swapped out seems dubious. The GA seems to be holding on to the secret of true multi-drive missiles pretty closely and even the lightspeed controlled Mycroft relied on those to get sufficient coverage.


That said, if all you need to do is cover the seemingly unusable wormhole terminus from a surprise transit you don't need fancy ships or long ranged missiles. A control station / fort, some service shuttles, and a pile of laserhead mines and energy weapons buoys will make any hostile transit unfeasibly expensive in terms of lost ships. And if you can back that up with some SDM laserhead pods then all the better.
You need some folks to man the shuttles that maintain the minefield -- but not so many folks.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

tlb wrote:Weren't they located in To End in Fire? It turned out to be software that could trigger the contents of a weapons magazine. They saw the malware activate, but the ship had all weapons removed for maintenance (or something like that?).

Yes, they were, see the June 1923 PD section of _To End in Fire_ (if you have an electronic copy, search for "Sorry to bother you, but..." for the start of the sequence). BTW, the fusion bottle was shut down as well or it would had blown up too.

I'd forgotten that. Though I do now wonder whether the sabotage went beyond just the malware and if there are any physical self-destruct charges hidden within the ex-PNE ships. Those might not destroy it as completely, or deniably, as a fatal ship killing malfunction in the reactor or warheads -- but they'd be a belt-and-suspenders approach to ensuring that the MAlign held the upper hand over the PNE.

tlb wrote:Weren't they located in To End in Fire? It turned out to be software that could trigger the contents of a weapons magazine. They saw the malware activate, but the ship had all weapons removed for maintenance (or something like that?).

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Yes, they were, see the June 1923 PD section of _To End in Fire_ (if you have an electronic copy, search for "Sorry to bother you, but..." for the start of the sequence). BTW, the fusion bottle was shut down as well or it would had blown up too.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd forgotten that. Though I do now wonder whether the sabotage went beyond just the malware and if there are any physical self-destruct charges hidden within the ex-PNE ships. Those might not destroy it as completely, or deniably, as a fatal ship killing malfunction in the reactor or warheads -- but they'd be a belt-and-suspenders approach to ensuring that the MAlign held the upper hand over the PNE.

The Malign was setting the StateSec ships up for remote controlled detonation, hence the controlling malware in the communication computer and the other routines elsewhere. Putting charges in various places would be both more obvious and harder to control as they separated. The purpose was not to threaten nor control them, instead it was to make them disappear after they did their dirty work - a parting signal as the Mesan Naval officers left the fleet.