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Haven - cutting welfare

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Haven - cutting welfare
Post by DDHvi   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:46 am

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About forty or fifty years ago, an article in the Scientific American concerned an experiment New Jersey made. They picked out fifty families on welfare, and set it up so that for one year, if they earned any income, only half of it would be deducted from their welfare. By the end of the year, most of the families had at least part time work, and the welfare total paid to those families had dropped.

Imagine if the Pierre administration had used such a method to decrease opposition to reducing the basic living stipend. Consider how Ransom could have yelled about the nasty Legislaturists taxing the poor at a 100% rate and hiding it! Think how they could have trumpeted that any dolists who moved to improve the economy by working should be rewarded for it instead of penalized.

Here is the question: Why is this method not used, either in fiction or reality :?:

The families benefit by increasing their income. The state benefits by cutting expenses. The economy benefits by more production and/or distribution. Who doesn't benefit, that this was cut off (in reality) instead of expanded :?:
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:45 am

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Becauses:...

Many are lazy and just simply won't work. That's a fact.

Many lack the education for the most menial job or the skills needed to apply, or to research the jobs. Or lack the proper clothing or dress skills, or interview skills.

Many are mentally handicapped. Some of those can work but require even more government programs to assist.

Many are substance abusers and dependents and can't work. That's a fact.

Many are afraid the government programs are trying to trick them, are just a ploy, after jumping through so many legal hoops for years to get assistance that they truly need.

Many are single parents with one to several newborn babies who would be facing another problem of childcare expenses if they worked. Childcare that's expensive and not guaranteed to provide adequate or safe care.

Many are too physically disabled to work.

Many have been unemployed for so long that they've become numb to the system and untrusting.

Many have criminal records that prevent them from working because the government makes even a first time offender's mistake follow them and follow them and follow them...

And on and on and on and on...

One really has to volunteer one's time (not just monies and foodstuffs) to one's local communities before one can begin to even clearly see the problem before then hoping to understand it.

My family has been donating money, food, scholarships, time, clothing, furniture - you name it, for as long as I can remember. We have met and assisted some amazing people. However, the many needs and cases are overwhelming and heartbreaking. An emotional but highly rewarding bridge of experience for the compassionate.

There truly is joy in giving.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by The E   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:49 am

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DDHvi wrote:About forty or fifty years ago, an article in the Scientific American concerned an experiment New Jersey made. They picked out fifty families on welfare, and set it up so that for one year, if they earned any income, only half of it would be deducted from their welfare. By the end of the year, most of the families had at least part time work, and the welfare total paid to those families had dropped.


A similar experiment was run in Canada in the 1970s. It was called MINCOME, was apparently rather successful in improving the life quality of the people involved, and was never really analyzed because the conservatives in Canada would rather bury the data than admit that their prejudices against social security systems may be unfounded.

A final report was never issued, but Manitoban economist Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidents of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse. Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:24 am

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Welfare systems are never going to wholly work. Not until people really want them to work. The spirit of welfare has to begin in the collective hearts of people. And that won't be until there are evidence of commercials - heck even some, or one commercial - garnering sympathy for the atrocity of humans living in cardboard boxes or sleeping under bridges or the reality of women - some pregnant - living in the woods, rather than the atrocity of stray cats and dogs living in cages.

We constantly see a plethora of three minute commercials detailing the plight of homeless animals but not one detailing the plight of homeless people.

Parents are quick to sympathize with their little kids about a homeless puppy but ignores the kid when they ask "why is that woman living outside?"

Welfare must begin at home in the heart. We can hardly expect our government to cure the problem if we ourselves could really care less - when indeed we ourselves couldn't care less.

I can't imagine people to be any different on Haven.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by noblehunter   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:49 am

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If understand the Dolists' culture of entitlement correctly, they'd probably just ask why they couldn't get the half-again money without working.
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by Direwolf18   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:34 pm

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noblehunter wrote:If understand the Dolists' culture of entitlement correctly, they'd probably just ask why they couldn't get the half-again money without working.



Precisely, there is always a big difference between a hand up, and a hand out. Even today we see sub cultures in many countries where people will be born live and die on one form of government subsidy or another.

When it transitions to a system where large groups of people are just as happy to sit on the government dole instead of working, that is where the real issue arise. Why would they bother getting off said subsidies? If the quality of life on welfare is greater then holding down a low paying job what is the incentive of changing their situation?
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:47 pm

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Excellent answers already given. The big hammer that makes welfare last is that the folks who receive such handouts vote and will usually (always) vote their own $self interest$. Until that changes, welfare will continue to put into office and keep there liberal politicians. Very simple. Very nasty. A chicken in every pot? But ... who ends up paying for the chicken? My views only. HB
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:29 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Excellent answers already given. The big hammer that makes welfare last is that the folks who receive such handouts vote and will usually (always) vote their own $self interest$. Until that changes, welfare will continue to put into office and keep there liberal politicians. Very simple. Very nasty. A chicken in every pot? But ... who ends up paying for the chicken? My views only. HB


That is probably why Manticore has the franchise limited to citizens who pay one centicred (penny) more than they receive from the government.
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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by saber964   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:32 pm

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Counting up all the benefits a person or family receives on welfare. Namely housing assistance, food assistance, child care assistance, utilities assistance and etc. etc. A person would have to make over $36,000 per year to equal welfare payments versus $18-20,000 per year working a minimum wage job full time and not receiving any of the above assistance.
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Re: Haven - cutting welfare
Post by Sigs   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:31 pm

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Because the welfare state that is/was Haven has had it's people on welfare for so long that they feel it is their right to receive money from the government. There are some people on welfare who genuinely for one reason or another cannot gain employment, then there are people who are on welfare only until they get back on their feet. And then there is another group that feels entitled or disinterested in working, or is satisfied with getting a little for nothing rather than working for more. If you create a system like the one in Haven, and live it for long enough we would see the third group becoming the majority after a few centuries.
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