Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

Crown Loyalist wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:Well, it is excellent Science Fiction. In the excellent books we understand that the Sollies will die before raising their taxes ... because they can not. My thinking was what if that naggy fact was not true? Increased taxes. Quickly. Then what? HB

The Solarian League would quickly cease to exist as member states refused the unconstitutional act and withdrew.

Really? You think so? You don't think the unprecedented threat to the SL doesn't require changing some ink stains made by long-dead men who could have never have predicted this situation? Instead you think we should just accept defeat and welcome our new overlords? Are you an agent of Manticore?

Remember that the MA will "encourage" the Sollies to fight.

HB of CJ wrote:One big problem the Sollies will have is that the Sollie League is just ... so big! Communications are limited to the fastest ship. Even if they would quickly change the law and greatly increase taxes, could they in the time they have?

Reconsider the situation in the USA just before we got into WW2. Small military. Low taxes. Isolationist. How quickly that changed after Pearl Harbor! We went from a farming nation to a war material nation in about 12 months.

Could the Sollies raise taxes and get into war production that quickly? Dunno. In WW2 we built the B29 bomber from scratch in less than 2 years. In 2.75 years it was leveling Japan. That project cost more than the Manhatton Project A bombs.

One nation, the USA, built lots of war stuff. What was amazing is that all happened concurrently together. Everything came together. Taxes and War Bonds were the key. Could the Sollies do the same thing ... against the GA? And at what tax rate?

that timeline is a little misleading. Thanks to Lend Lease and the naval expansion acts the U.S. was well on its way to a war footing prior to Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt was working hard to get military production ramped up at least as far back as '39.
The Army didn't undergo its major expansion until later but the factories were spooling up before the end of '41.

Not that there weren't some amazing strides made after that; just that it wasn't a standing start.

There was a national guard callup in mid-1941 iirc, which is why there were guard units in the Philippines when Dugout Doug pulled off his master stroke.

kzt wrote:

Crown Loyalist wrote:The Solarian League would quickly cease to exist as member states refused the unconstitutional act and withdrew.

Really? You think so? You don't think the unprecedented threat to the SL doesn't require changing some ink stains made by long-dead men who could have never have predicted this situation? Instead you think we should just accept defeat and welcome our new overlords? Are you an agent of Manticore?

It's a constitutional limitation. I don't think it would be that easy for the SL to change it.

HB of CJ wrote:Remember that the MA will "encourage" the Sollies to fight.

No, the MA will encourage the Sollies to shatter. The League shedding member systems is the whole point of this little venture on their part. The MA encourages the Sollies to fight in order to make sure that everyone in the league sees how impotent and worthless the League has become. Past that, the very, very last thing the MA wants to see - the last thing in all the universe - is the Solarian League reforming into a functioning, centralized government.

That would literally be the opposite of everything they've worked for for centuries.

.

kzt wrote:Really? You think so? You don't think the unprecedented threat to the SL doesn't require changing some ink stains made by long-dead men who could have never have predicted this situation? Instead you think we should just accept defeat and welcome our new overlords? Are you an agent of Manticore?

(1) Constitutional crises are not things easily overcome. And people hate taxes.

(2) "Welcome our new overlords" only becomes an issue if Manticore starts invading and annexing actual Solarian member systems, which it is clear that Manticore will not do. You have to remember: the Solarian League is a union of independent states in truth. Principal loyalties are to independent systems, not to the League government.

As long as Manticore does not jeopardize those individual systems and give them a reason to band together, loyalty to the League - an ancient, totally defunct, and only tolerated because it's footprint in all those systems is so very insignificant - is not a meaningful factor here.

As it happens - I agree with the basic premise of the above posts. The single biggest threat to Manticore is not Mesa, it's Sol. Period. Eliminating the Solarian League as a political entity is and must now be Manticore's principal strategic objective, because if the Solarian League is allowed to exist for more than, say, twenty years it will eventually swamp the Grand Alliance under, even if they have to do it with a swarm of a hundred thousand battlecruisers.

But the fact of the matter is, I don't see the League as having a prayer at surviving that long - at least, not as long as Manticore doesn't screw up. And the fact that Mesa and Manticore's objectives (short-term) for the fate of the Solarian League are identical assures me that the League is going to die in short order.

(1) Manticore isn't going to screw up, not in the way they'd have to to give the Solarian League the needed impetus for reform.

(2) I'm absolutely sure the Mesan Alignment has one, maybe two more big wedges they're going to drive between Solarian members in their pocket.

(3) Way, way too many "members" of the Solarian League want out.

SWM wrote:

kzt wrote:Really? You think so? You don't think the unprecedented threat to the SL doesn't require changing some ink stains made by long-dead men who could have never have predicted this situation? Instead you think we should just accept defeat and welcome our new overlords? Are you an agent of Manticore?

It's a constitutional limitation. I don't think it would be that easy for the SL to change it.

Remember that growing your own wheat for your farm is interstate commerce and prohibiting people from owning military weapons is totally in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. So I'll bet the SL courts will approve the interpretation. They certainly should, as they are all appointed by the actual SL government and understand the stakes.

But it will probably take a while for this to reach the courts, as someone has to file a suit and have standing. Which means a sovereign system needs to formally file a suit. Then their will be the procedural motions. But in 10 years or so there will be a decision and in the meantime things need to be done.

Crown Loyalist wrote:(3) Way, way too many "members" of the Solarian League want out.

The parts that want out are generally not important. Other than Beowulf, name a core system that isn't a RF member who wants out.