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CLAC's in Home Fleet

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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:33 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Though why use freighters in the place of already specialized transports is beyond me. Transports that are themselves armed.
Because you don't have endless numbers of CLACs - if you tie them up for routine shipping of LACs then they aren't available to the various fleets that might need organic LAC support.


It's almost like asking why, in WWII, the US boxed up fighters and shipped them in merchant ships to the UK rather than placing them on carriers - where they could at least fly off if attacked (though admittedly they couldn't land again).
Well the US had relatively lots of merchant ships, and only a handful of carriers. The carriers need to be reserved for the jobs that only they can do. But moving LACs (or planes) in a relatively low threat environment when they're not needed for immediate action is one of the things that a normal freighter can do.

Now late in the war when the USN had a relative surplus of CVEs they did use some of them as glorified aircraft ferries. And even earlier in the war when it was strategically necessary they used carriers to deliver planes - such as the Malta resupply runs where it was safer to dash within one-way range of the island and fly the planes off; which obviously a freighter can't do.

I am discussing battle conditions. Emergency battle conditions, not for transporting broken junk or leisurely sending a few LACs here and there. Conditions where tactical and strategic flexibility is your lifeblood.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:36 pm

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cthia wrote:I am discussing battle conditions. Emergency battle conditions, not for transporting broken junk or leisurely sending a few LACs here and there. Conditions where tactical and strategic flexibility is your lifeblood.

I'd suggest waiting 15 minutes and seeing if there is still any need before calling home system for more LACs. It's pretty likely that at the end of that 15 minutes you won't have any urgent need for more, one way or another.
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:40 pm

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cthia wrote:I thought it was obvious that I meant that freighters shouldn't be considered a modus operandi - normal operations. Contingency and auxiliary plans are called that for a reason, sometimes diverting from official plans is unavoidable.



But they are used for normal Operations. Raiding fleets may be sent out with 2-3 CLACs but their Fleet train has a freighter or 2 with LACS in their holds as spares. The manner spares are moved from Manticore to the regional Fleet bases is usually via freighter.

It's just like ammo, the safest place for ammo or spare electronics parts is in the magazines or holds of a warship. But warships are a wasteful way to ship ammo or parts, so an ammo ship or freighter is used. So too with large #s of spare LACs.

Why would you waste your shooters on shiping in the interior lines when freighters can do it much more economically?

The Freighters are there to allow a "top off" between missions, so you don't get into a situation where your CLACs are down to 60-80% usable birds, and have no option but to run back to home base for more. It'a always better to have a partially empty freighter than a Bingo warship.
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:49 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:I am discussing battle conditions. Emergency battle conditions, not for transporting broken junk or leisurely sending a few LACs here and there. Conditions where tactical and strategic flexibility is your lifeblood.

I'd suggest waiting 15 minutes and seeing if there is still any need before calling home system for more LACs. It's pretty likely that at the end of that 15 minutes you won't have any urgent need for more, one way or another.

:lol:

But. I am considering situations, like the Blackbird fiasco, where Intel from captured officers or hacked security, divulges information of an impending attack that does allow time to yell for LAC assistance.

Or just the sixth-sense of a Salamander of what over yonder hyper wall is a-coming.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:11 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:I thought it was obvious that I meant that freighters shouldn't be considered a modus operandi - normal operations. Contingency and auxiliary plans are called that for a reason, sometimes diverting from official plans is unavoidable.



But they are used for normal Operations. Raiding fleets may be sent out with 2-3 CLACs but their Fleet train has a freighter or 2 with LACS in their holds as spares. The manner spares are moved from Manticore to the regional Fleet bases is usually via freighter.

It's just like ammo, the safest place for ammo or spare electronics parts is in the magazines or holds of a warship. But warships are a wasteful way to ship ammo or parts, so an ammo ship or freighter is used. So too with large #s of spare LACs.

Why would you waste your shooters on shiping in the interior lines when freighters can do it much more economically?

The Freighters are there to allow a "top off" between missions, so you don't get into a situation where your CLACs are down to 60-80% usable birds, and have no option but to run back to home base for more. It'a always better to have a partially empty freighter than a Bingo warship.

Normal operations as in normal offensive operations of attack. Not normal auxiliary operations of resupply. The logistics of keeping your supply lines alive, and not being choked by the enemy, is a separate consideration.

Hell, in a pinch you tractor them inside your wedge as Haven did if need be. But the initial operation of strategically deploying a LAC force to a certain area is achieved by CLACs, not by the supporting fleet train.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:38 pm

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cthia wrote:I thought it was obvious that I meant that freighters shouldn't be considered a modus operandi - normal operations. Contingency and auxiliary plans are called that for a reason, sometimes diverting from official plans is unavoidable.

Edit - oops, I replied before noticing the rest of the posts. I see we were talking past each other. Of course you wouldn't use freighters shipping "crated" LACs when there was expectation that you'd need to immediately deploy those LACs. After all offensive combat LAC operations are the entire reason for CLACs. But I misunderstood what you meant by "normal operations" -- to my mind "normal" was "non-combat". -end edit



Yes, but I think exactly the opposite. Freighters should be the normal way of shipping LACs out to LAC bases, or sending replacements forward to nodal fleets. CLACs should only be used when there is a tactical need to support LAC combat operations, or in unusual circumstances.

Otherwise you risk having you fleet's CLACs scattered off on fairly routing shipping missions when an emergency comes up; leaving the fleet short of deployable LAC screen.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:46 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I thought it was obvious that I meant that freighters shouldn't be considered a modus operandi - normal operations. Contingency and auxiliary plans are called that for a reason, sometimes diverting from official plans is unavoidable.

Edit - oops, I repllied before noticing the rest of the posts. I see we were talking past each other. Of course you wouldn't use freighters shipping "crated" LACs when there was exectation that you'd need to immediately deploy those LACs. After all offensive combat LAC operations are the entire reason for CLACs. But I misunderstood what you meant by "normal operations" -- to my mind "normal" was "non-combat".



Yes, but I think exactly the opposite. Freighters should be the normal way of shipping LACs out to LAC bases, or sending replacements forward to nodal fleets. CLACs should only be used when there is a tactical need to support LAC combat opperations, or in unusual circumstances.

Otherwise you risk having you fleet's CLACs scattered off on fairly routing shipping missions when an emergency comes up; leaving the fleet short of deployable LAC screen.

But that is exactly what I am saying! "Normal operations" for CLACs isn't to act as fleet trains.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:01 pm

cthia
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Okay. Many of you seem poised to disagree with me. That's okay, Admirals think differently, varying views. Different strategies are presented to the Admiralty, or Commander in Chief.

Sigs originally proposes establishing CLAC bases in other systems, like Talbot, and he dispels the need for available CLACs in the Home system. I gave arguments against that.

I'd like to see arguments specifically pro or con Sig's original proposal and not just directed at me. If you disagree with how I'd like to allocate/position CLACs, give an alternative position(npi).

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:03 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:There are only a few times when a CLAC is preferable to a cargo ship.
1) When transport time is absolutely critical, and a commercial hyperdrive is insufficient.
2) When you are entering a high threat area that can't be mitigated by standard convoy escorts.
3) When the LACs must be ready to use as soon as you enter a system, rather than a couple of hours after you make orbit.
4) When cargo ships are aboslutly unavailable.

I'd add one more (that may have applied in the Talbott Cluster) though it's really just an expansion on your #3.

5) When you need the ability to operate system defense LACs but their permanent base is being completed.


In that scenario you might choose to temporarily tie down a CLAC or two until the station/fort is ready to serve as the long term base for the system's LAC force. (Since your other options are to leave it undefended, or leave multiple hyper capable combatants to cover the system until the LAC base is ready to receive a shipment of LACs)
cthia wrote:Yes, you contact the Home system. That's what I have been saying. The Home system dictates tactical and strategic policy. What I am saying, is that in a pinch you send for help in the Home system for certain! Whether you contact other bases as well, or have the option to do so, is simply extra icing. But contacting the Home system is a must. That was utilized throughout the books.

"Detach one of the tin cans to the Admiralty for reinforcements, and one to System X and System B, to alert those COs, if we can spare them.

And you want the Home system(Admiralty) to be able to respond, and to at least thrust the responsibility of logistics and decision upon his shoulders. Nearby fleets may be busy themselves, have been diverted elsewhere, destroyed or redeployed. I never said that reinforcements should come from Home fleet. I am saying that the Home system, which just happens to hold Home fleet, is where you send for help.

Are you forgetting the Case Zulu sent by Harrington from Yeltsin? She didn't have the luxury to pussyfoot around with the logistics of availability of nearby forces, nor could Honor make the decision to divert those forces at the time, IIRC, as many COs on the spot wouldn't have that authority to do so. And having to convince another station Commander to do so in an emergency, may utilize more time than Murphy allows. Honor sent for help directly Home. Hell, she didn't even have the available ships to spare to send all over Honorverse's or Hell's creation.

Remember also, Alice Truman when she disabled the safety interlocks. Where did she run to? She ran her sweet ass Home, as quickly as her safety interlocks would take her. She didn't pass go, didn't take time to collect 200 credits, and she didn't bother checking with other fleet bases.
In the case of Grayson the Manticoran System was/is the closest fleet base.

Also as it was pre-war, and really before they'd set up much of the Alliance infrastructure, it was probably the only nodal response force. But that's changed later in the books.


Even as early as SVW that's why Yancy Parks and his superdreadnaughts were deployed to Hancock station - to act as a local nodal response force to any incursions in the surrounding Allied systems. It would have taken the better part of a month (18 days or so) if those systems had sent a courier to Manticore, just so the Admiralty could dispatch another courier all the way back to Parks ordering him to move. [based of the maps it looks like Hancock station is roughly 52 LY from Manticore]

The local systems contact the nodal response fleet, and that Admiral can notify Manticore. The communication loops (once you get much past the junction termini) are just too long to centrally coordinate fleet response.
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Re: CLAC's in Home Fleet
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
crewdude48 wrote:There are only a few times when a CLAC is preferable to a cargo ship.
1) When transport time is absolutely critical, and a commercial hyperdrive is insufficient.
2) When you are entering a high threat area that can't be mitigated by standard convoy escorts.
3) When the LACs must be ready to use as soon as you enter a system, rather than a couple of hours after you make orbit.
4) When cargo ships are aboslutly unavailable.

I'd add one more (that may have applied in the Talbott Cluster) though it's really just an expansion on your #3.

5) When you need the ability to operate system defense LACs but their permanent base is being completed.


In that scenario you might choose to temporarily tie down a CLAC or two until the station/fort is ready to serve as the long term base for the system's LAC force. (Since your other options are to leave it undefended, or leave multiple hyper capable combatants to cover the system until the LAC base is ready to receive a shipment of LACs)

The long endurance of RMN/GSN LAC's would finally serve a purpose in a case like that - drop them off by CLAC, or well-fitted freighter, start getting pre-fab basing set up, and let them get along on onboard stores and maintenance in the interim. Or let that well-fitted freighter remain as a tender for them.
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