Honorverse ramblings and musings

thinkstoomuch wrote:

SWM wrote:Lack of FTL control does mean much lower accuracy. But as others have said, it would be no worse than pre-Apollo MDMs. MDMs were used effectively for years before Apollo was developed.

One thing is that in order to use those MDMs the Ghost Rider project improved the sensors on the missiles by a significant amount.

Based on what we have seen of SLN sensors (nothing in particular for the missiles) they are going to be much worse, accuracy wise, than the 1900ish RMN SDMs. IMNHO anyways.

Have fun,
T2M

Which is what I was originally getting at. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!


.

cthia wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:One thing is that in order to use those MDMs the Ghost Rider project improved the sensors on the missiles by a significant amount.

Based on what we have seen of SLN sensors (nothing in particular for the missiles) they are going to be much worse, accuracy wise, than the 1900ish RMN SDMs. IMNHO anyways.

Have fun,
T2M

Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

There is no reason to be befuddled. You are absolutely correct. The accuracy of the Cataphract with ballistic phase right now will be pretty poor (though I think it would be somewhat better than you suggest).

However, David Weber has, several times, specifically pointed out that the Cataphract with ballistic phase has the same range as any Manticoran MDM. There must be a reason he keeps pointing it out. You also forget that simply knowing something is possible is a big step toward duplicating it. The League is actively doing further development of the Cataphract. They believe that if they can improve it somewhat, and build enough pods, they can match the Grand Alliance. They may be right.

cthia wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:
One thing is that in order to use those MDMs the Ghost Rider project improved the sensors on the missiles by a significant amount.

Based on what we have seen of SLN sensors (nothing in particular for the missiles) they are going to be much worse, accuracy wise, than the 1900ish RMN SDMs. IMNHO anyways.

Have fun,
T2M

Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

This is another situation where one word ("range" in this case) refers to several different things.

Do the Caraphracts have the same MAX range as Mk23's? Yes; both are functionaly unlimited. If you can detect a target, you can get a missile there... eventually.

Do they have the same powered range? Not by a long shot.

Do they have the same effective range? Not even close, especially when you include Apollo.

Also, not to nit pick, but I am going to pick at one nit. The Cataphract is not a Multi Drive Missile. It is a multiple STAGE missile. On the MDMs you have one of everything and multiple drive rings. One power system, one one receiver, one computer, three sets of nodes all nestled against one another. On the Cataphract, you essentially have two of everything and one warhead. One CM type missile with an anemic warhead, basicly welded onto the front of a regular missile.

With Hemphill already thinking about extending ranges, I suspect that there was a design similar to the Cataphract somewhere in GRAM that would have been sent to the manufacturing department if the war started going badly, but up until they had the MDM in serious development, the RMN was handling the Peeps quite well. A Cataphract-type design is super easy once you realize you need it, and put the right people to work on it. It is everything else that is hard.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

There is no reason to be befuddled. You are absolutely correct. The accuracy of the Cataphract with ballistic phase right now will be pretty poor (though I think it would be somewhat better than you suggest).

However, David Weber has, several times, specifically pointed out that the Cataphract with ballistic phase has the same range as any Manticoran MDM. There must be a reason he keeps pointing it out. You also forget that simply knowing something is possible is a big step toward duplicating it. The League is actively doing further development of the Cataphract. They believe that if they can improve it somewhat, and build enough pods, they can match the Grand Alliance. They may be right.

It wouldn't be a SLN trick, but it's possible that that extreme range might be used by the MAlign.

They could have the big LennyDets hang way the hell back and roll pods, but sneak Ghosts in close (or even the fire-control relay platforms the Ghosts used in Oyster Bay). If they can hand off the missile to the (super stealth) forward platforms you might have surprisingly good effectiveness out at what appear to be super long ranges. And since the close in units aren't firing, they should be very easy to miss.

cthia wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:One thing is that in order to use those MDMs the Ghost Rider project improved the sensors on the missiles by a significant amount.

Based on what we have seen of SLN sensors (nothing in particular for the missiles) they are going to be much worse, accuracy wise, than the 1900ish RMN SDMs. IMNHO anyways.

Have fun,
T2M

Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

crewdude48 wrote:
This is another situation where one word ("range" in this case) refers to several different things.

Do the Caraphracts have the same MAX range as Mk23's? Yes; both are functionaly unlimited. If you can detect a target, you can get a missile there... eventually.

Do they have the same powered range? Not by a long shot.

Do they have the same effective range? Not even close, especially when you include Apollo.

Also, not to nit pick, but I am going to pick at one nit. The Cataphract is not a Multi Drive Missile. It is a multiple STAGE missile. On the MDMs you have one of everything and multiple drive rings. One power system, one one receiver, one computer, three sets of nodes all nestled against one another. On the Cataphract, you essentially have two of everything and one warhead. One CM type missile with an anemic warhead, basicly welded onto the front of a regular missile.

With Hemphill already thinking about extending ranges, I suspect that there was a design similar to the Cataphract somewhere in GRAM that would have been sent to the manufacturing department if the war started going badly, but up until they had the MDM in serious development, the RMN was handling the Peeps quite well. A Cataphract-type design is super easy once you realize you need it, and put the right people to work on it. It is everything else that is hard.

Really appreciate that this post clarifies much for me. Thanks.

And the remaining Manty advantage in powered missile range would represent all of what tactical advantages?

Would that advantage be great enough that it places the SLN inside their extreme ballistic component range?

Dude, one thing isn't quite clear. Regions of my brain are thicker than normal. Are you saying that the SLN's multi stage missile is superior in design to a multi drive missile? Seems it's obviously a cheaper design - and relatedly quicker to mass produce, but besides that, are there any tactical advantages?

One is obviously that the RMN can more quickly space dust SLN ships, seeing(npi) that they wouldn't have to rely on a ballistic component. Any other tactical advantages?

Remember that neat little trick that our resourceful little Shannon used to blind Manticoran missile sensors? The nukes? Well, no other navy has seen that trick, yet. It'd come as a nasty surprise to the League. Like, their missile sensors are already what, 50/50 eyesight?

SLN tech may not be as robust as Manty tech, Technodyne or no, and that little trick may have an even more disastrous effect. SLN missiles may not recover at all, total sensor burnout maybe?

It could be formally called a CBE. Coronal-like blast effect.

How do you like them apples? They be sportin' a worm. More like a snake(viper) that spits fire and blinds.

Yea!

cthia wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:One thing is that in order to use those MDMs the Ghost Rider project improved the sensors on the missiles by a significant amount.

Based on what we have seen of SLN sensors (nothing in particular for the missiles) they are going to be much worse, accuracy wise, than the 1900ish RMN SDMs. IMNHO anyways.

Have fun,
T2M

Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

SWM wrote:
There is no reason to be befuddled. You are absolutely correct. The accuracy of the Cataphract with ballistic phase right now will be pretty poor (though I think it would be somewhat better than you suggest).

However, David Weber has, several times, specifically pointed out that the Cataphract with ballistic phase has the same range as any Manticoran MDM. There must be a reason he keeps pointing it out. You also forget that simply knowing something is possible is a big step toward duplicating it. The League is actively doing further development of the Cataphract. They believe that if they can improve it somewhat, and build enough pods, they can match the Grand Alliance. They may be right.

SWM wrote:
(though I think it would be better than you suggest.)

But how? If the GA fires from their own extreme ballistic range, which is well outside their already far greater powered missile range, then execute an optimal evasive maneuver - at the moment of SLN fire - that takes them far away as possible from their last position, how the heck does SLN missiles respond without benefit of recon, FTL info or decent sensors?

They'd be suffering from "Duh, which way did they go?"

On top of that, the GA can just drop CM's programmed to light off at their last spot suckering SLN missiles in to attacking absolutely nothing.

That is what I see in my head anyways. All made possible by all of the extra GA tech, missing in the SLN arsenal, that supplements such extended ballistic ranges!

Sure would like to see what David has in mind with his hint.

.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Which is what I was originally getting it. The SLN doesn't have anything even remotely like Ghost Rider, or even nominal improvement in its sensor technology. Plus, in addition to lacking any improvement in supplementary sensors for MDM use, it skipped right to MDM + ballistic phase. What??? With no sensor improvement? And many are claiming that they can milk that performance even further by firing at its most extreme MDM range??? Doesn't make sense to me. How can the SLN skip the stages necessary to make that missile capability work? Stages that Sonja Hemphill toiled over to JIT save Manty bacon!

Plus! The SLN will be firing those winded Cataphracts into the teeth of a much superior CM defense.

Initially, I said that intuitively it doesn't seem as if the SLN can hit the broad side of a barn.

I'd like to recant that...

I don't think they should be able to hit the broad side, of the broad side, of a broad barn!

S.O.S. Me be befuddled!

There is no reason to be befuddled. You are absolutely correct. The accuracy of the Cataphract with ballistic phase right now will be pretty poor (though I think it would be somewhat better than you suggest).

However, David Weber has, several times, specifically pointed out that the Cataphract with ballistic phase has the same range as any Manticoran MDM. There must be a reason he keeps pointing it out. You also forget that simply knowing something is possible is a big step toward duplicating it. The League is actively doing further development of the Cataphract. They believe that if they can improve it somewhat, and build enough pods, they can match the Grand Alliance. They may be right.

Johnathan_S wrote:It wouldn't be a SLN trick, but it's possible that that extreme range might be used by the MAlign.

They could have the big LennyDets hang way the hell back and roll pods, but sneak Ghosts in close (or even the fire-control relay platforms the Ghosts used in Oyster Bay). If they can hand off the missile to the (super stealth) forward platforms you might have surprisingly good effectiveness out at what appear to be super long ranges. And since the close in units aren't firing, they should be very easy to miss.

That's some real scary excrement Johnathan. Much stinkier than schit too!

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:
(though I think it would be better than you suggest.)

But how? If the GA fires from their own extreme ballistic range, which is well outside their already far greater powered missile range, then execute an optimal evasive maneuver - at the moment of SLN fire - that takes them far away as possible from their last position, how the heck does SLN missiles respond without benefit of recon, FTL info or decent sensors?

They'd be suffering from "Duh, which way did they go?"

Well... if you had enough pods, and enough missiles, firing at few/small enough targets, even the missiles' onboard sensors could pick up the targets often enough and evade their active defenses in sufficient numbers to do damage. The proportion of laserheads that actually get shots at sidewalls or bow/stern aspects will be tiny, but a tiny, tiny proportion of a stupendous number is more than zero.

We may be talking about several wallers stuffed with pods firing to hurt a single somewhat old RMN destroyer, but sheer numbers will tell if you can bring them to bear against a problem of mere proportionate attrition of utility.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:
There is no reason to be befuddled. You are absolutely correct. The accuracy of the Cataphract with ballistic phase right now will be pretty poor (though I think it would be somewhat better than you suggest).

However, David Weber has, several times, specifically pointed out that the Cataphract with ballistic phase has the same range as any Manticoran MDM. There must be a reason he keeps pointing it out. You also forget that simply knowing something is possible is a big step toward duplicating it. The League is actively doing further development of the Cataphract. They believe that if they can improve it somewhat, and build enough pods, they can match the Grand Alliance. They may be right.

SWM wrote:
(though I think it would be better than you suggest.)

But how? If the GA fires from their own extreme ballistic range, which is well outside their already far greater powered missile range, then execute an optimal evasive maneuver - at the moment of SLN fire - that takes them far away as possible from their last position, how the heck does SLN missiles respond without benefit of recon, FTL info or decent sensors?

They'd be suffering from "Duh, which way did they go?"

On top of that, the GA can just drop CM's programmed to light off at their last spot suckering SLN missiles in to attacking absolutely nothing.

That is what I see in my head anyways. All made possible by all of the extra GA tech, missing in the SLN arsenal, that supplements such extended ballistic ranges!

Sure would like to see what David has in mind with his hint.

.

First of all, SLN sensors are not as anemic as you keep thinking. SLN tech was far better than early Havenite tech, and at least as good as early Manticoran sensors. Modern Manticoran sensors may be somewhat better than current Solarian sensors, but it's not a huge difference. There has not been a gigantic change in sensor technology, unlike several other subsystems.

As for your scenario of a Manticoran ship dodging Solarian cataphracts at extreme range--the Manticoran ship cannot move far enough that the missile will completely lose track of it. The missile will still be able to aim for the target ship. What it will not have is the most updated information to predict the ship's ECM, or predict where inside the wedge the actual ship is, or predict future movements, or exactly which sections of the sidewall are weakened, and so on.