Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:I was thinking again. How many LACs could a tricked out freighter hold? If convoys began traveling with a converted freighter/LAC carrier, pirates just may deem it's not worth it after being caught a few times counting their chickens before their eggs hatched. Especially if the hatchlings are freighters laying LACs. The entire operation could be tasked thru Thomas Bachfish.

It'll depend on freighter size, configuration, and whether it's just stuffed with LAC's as cargo (in which case they are almost certainly useless for protection), using makeshift facilities, carrying specialized LAC support modules, or are essentially a kind of CLAC q-ship.

And why don't freighter convoys carry military-grade sensors? Wouldn't early detection increase their chances of survival? Seems the cost would be well worth it, considering it's a lot cheaper than losing an entire convoy, personnel and cargo.

The point of a convoy is largely to put the protection for your freighters right there on site with them. So the convoy escort will have the military-grade sensors. Trying to make the convoys effectively self-defending means a huge expense tied up in what amount to bad warships and bad freighters.

--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:The point of a convoy is largely to put the protection for your freighters right there on site with them. So the convoy escort will have the military-grade sensors. Trying to make the convoys effectively self-defending means a huge expense tied up in what amount to bad warships and bad freighters.

Very true, but without shipyards to build new warships, the RMMC is in a make-do situation. So far my best convoy protection using an existing ship is an RMN cruiser with a single freighter out of the bunch configured to pop out up to 4 Shrikes or Katanas, from specially made LAC Pod/Bays and at least one additional bay loaded with Mark-16G pods. I might think also ask the tech geeks from Weyland to design rack mountable pods [and power cords!] for freighter use given enough available hard points. That should be enough to hold off just about any size raiding force until a convoy has hypered back out on divergent courses, and still discourage any raiders from attempting to follow.

That said, if Bachfish isn't otherwise engaged and necessary in Silesia, I do like the idea of putting him in command of the RMMC escort missions for the duration.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:The point of a convoy is largely to put the protection for your freighters right there on site with them. So the convoy escort will have the military-grade sensors. Trying to make the convoys effectively self-defending means a huge expense tied up in what amount to bad warships and bad freighters.

Very true, but without shipyards to build new warships, the RMMC is in a make-do situation. So far my best convoy protection using an existing ship is an RMN cruiser with a single freighter out of the bunch configured to pop out up to 4 Shrikes or Katanas, from specially made LAC Pod/Bays and at least one additional bay loaded with Mark-16G pods. I might think also ask the tech geeks from Weyland to design rack mountable pods [and power cords!] for freighter use given enough available hard points. That should be enough to hold off just about any size raiding force until a convoy has hypered back out on divergent courses, and still discourage any raiders from attempting to follow.

That said, if Bachfish isn't otherwise engaged and necessary in Silesia, I do like the idea of putting him in command of the RMMC escort missions for the duration.

But there never seems to be enough "protection" to go around. Especially now, when ships and hulls are in low supply. The point of outfitting freighters as carriers will spread the word and give pirates pause. Even captured SLN fleet can be used to battle pirates.

Bachfish could be given a fleet of captured Solly hardware to engage pirates.

SLN hardware could end up doing what they should have been doing anyways.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:The point of a convoy is largely to put the protection for your freighters right there on site with them. So the convoy escort will have the military-grade sensors. Trying to make the convoys effectively self-defending means a huge expense tied up in what amount to bad warships and bad freighters.

Very true, but without shipyards to build new warships, the RMMC is in a make-do situation. So far my best convoy protection using an existing ship is an RMN cruiser with a single freighter out of the bunch configured to pop out up to 4 Shrikes or Katanas, from specially made LAC Pod/Bays and at least one additional bay loaded with Mark-16G pods. I might think also ask the tech geeks from Weyland to design rack mountable pods [and power cords!] for freighter use given enough available hard points. That should be enough to hold off just about any size raiding force until a convoy has hypered back out on divergent courses, and still discourage any raiders from attempting to follow.

Counting all the old designs - and now with some ability to lean on the RHN and IAN for help with commerce protection - one DD, CL, or old CA per convoy may still not be asking too much.

While some LAC(s) along for the ride in some fashion would help, and it'd be a fine deterrent after word gets out, it's tricky to use them for convoy protection. If they get you in a grav wave, there's no using them. If they get you in hyper between waves and you scatter, the LAC and crew are just dead, and cannot access other bands in pursuit. If they get you near a hyperlimit and your way out is back into hyper, the same applies. But if you've got a hypercapable escort, none of that is a worry. (Being overwhelmed still may be, of course.) And that LAC or LAC's would then be free to beef up system defenses, so you're safer in-system at either end of the trip.

A LAC strapped onto a freighter hull may still be something to lend sensors and fire control to one of those forces without any escort but with pods, and if it is a tactical situation in which either the LAC can be fully useful, or desperate enough that losing the LAC is worth it, then it's available to detach and maybe put another page in the Book of Saganami.

I forgot those and Andrea Jaruwalski as well.

As for Freighters with military sensors, a lot of freighters never normally work in an area with high rates of pirates, so the expense of purchasing/maintaining those sensors is not worth it. Now there is textev that in places where pirates are a problem, like Silesia, the regulars will have mil spec sensors or at least close to it.

RFC has mentioned LAC pods to give freighters some cover in the two most dangerous areas for attack by raiders. First, for covering attacks to and from the hyperlimit. Second, is between grav waves in hyperspace using impellers. With the bad sensor conditions in hyperspace, the likely hood of attack in a grav wave is minimal.

LACs in hyperspace can be used in between grav waves and while if they are stranded they are likely lost. But if the option is protect the convoy with LACs or no protection at all, well the military is a high risk occupation to defend your nation. I can see the RMN using LACs if necessary due to the Saganami Tradition.

Attaching a LAC pod in the bay door is not as hard as upgrading the sensors AND adding fire control links AND adding a fire control suite on the bridge for pods. You also make the freighter a warship by doing that and insurance companies would probably balk at that. You can argue that carrying LACs is similar to having the escort along, but arming the ship, especially with the fire control suite, is going to be a problem. Not to mention, if the crew is not completely honest, you just made a new pirate with really good weapons. The LACs in a pod are not in the same degree of danger the crew of the freighter can't fire them.

Also, freighters are not built to be warships as framing and armor defeat the purpose of large open spaces for cargo. Carrying along the LACs to escort is one thing, but getting into combat means you can be hit with weapons and that will destroy the freighter with pods. If the freighter runs while the LACs pop out as immediate targets, the freighter could survive. Yes, I know everyone is positing long range engagements with pods, but with raiders who like to lie in wait, you can't always get what you want.

Honor of the Queen

Her merchantmen, she told herself. Her charges—slow, fat, clumsy, the smallest of them six times more massive than Fearless's three hundred thousand tons but totally defenseless, and stuffed with cargoes whose combined value was literally beyond comprehension. Over a hundred and fifty billion Manticoran dollars' worth of it headed for Yeltsin's Star alone. Medical equipment, teaching materials, heavy machinery, precision tools, and molycirc computers and software to update and modernize the Graysons' out-of-date industrial base—every penny of it paid for by Crown "loans" which amounted to outright gifts. It was a sobering indication of how high Queen Elizabeth's government was willing to bid for the alliance Admiral Courvosier sought, and it was Honor's responsibility to see it safely delivered.

Toying with this passage, even considering how wealthy Manticore is, that's a lot of money.

But its value to Grayson, is priceless. I can not even imagine the itemized list of goodies. Heavy machinery? Wow, I'm talking a *John Deere on roids!

And that was a straight out gift to Grayson IIRC. I can not help from thinking how a big fat similar convoy would help a poor world like Dresden, in the Talbott Quad.

Which makes me wonder about humanitarian efforts on a large scale in the Honorverse. Care packages--relief efforts, from several governments in the form of big fat expensive convoys. Spread the love around so to speak.

But how much of it would actually end up where it's needed instead of in corrupt bureaucrats' pockets?


****** *


*Unless the Honorverse future has supplanted John Deere with Johnnie Puma.

It runs like a Puma. Tough as one too.

cthia wrote:Honor of the Queen

Her merchantmen, she told herself. Her charges—slow, fat, clumsy, the smallest of them six times more massive than Fearless's three hundred thousand tons but totally defenseless, and stuffed with cargoes whose combined value was literally beyond comprehension. Over a hundred and fifty billion Manticoran dollars' worth of it headed for Yeltsin's Star alone. Medical equipment, teaching materials, heavy machinery, precision tools, and molycirc computers and software to update and modernize the Graysons' out-of-date industrial base—every penny of it paid for by Crown "loans" which amounted to outright gifts. It was a sobering indication of how high Queen Elizabeth's government was willing to bid for the alliance Admiral Courvosier sought, and it was Honor's responsibility to see it safely delivered.

Toying with this passage, even considering how wealthy Manticore is, that's a lot of money.

But its value to Grayson, is priceless. I can not even imagine the itemized list of goodies. Heavy machinery? Wow, I'm talking a *John Deere on roids!

And that was a straight out gift to Grayson IIRC. I can not help from thinking how a big fat similar convoy would help a poor world like Dresden, in the Talbott Quad.

Which makes me wonder about humanitarian efforts on a large scale in the Honorverse. Care packages--relief efforts, from several governments in the form of big fat expensive convoys. Spread the love around so to speak.

But how much of it would actually end up where it's needed instead of in corrupt bureaucrats' pockets?


****** *


*Unless the Honorverse future has supplanted John Deere with Johnnie Puma.

It runs like a Puma. Tough as one too.

My Bolding

Now then Cthia, seeing as it is supposed to be the Napoleonic Wars in Space and Manticore represents England, shouldn't it be JCB instead of John Deere

cthia wrote:Honor of the Queen

Her merchantmen, she told herself. Her charges—slow, fat, clumsy, the smallest of them six times more massive than Fearless's three hundred thousand tons but totally defenseless, and stuffed with cargoes whose combined value was literally beyond comprehension. Over a hundred and fifty billion Manticoran dollars' worth of it headed for Yeltsin's Star alone. Medical equipment, teaching materials, heavy machinery, precision tools, and molycirc computers and software to update and modernize the Graysons' out-of-date industrial base—every penny of it paid for by Crown "loans" which amounted to outright gifts. It was a sobering indication of how high Queen Elizabeth's government was willing to bid for the alliance Admiral Courvosier sought, and it was Honor's responsibility to see it safely delivered.

Toying with this passage, even considering how wealthy Manticore is, that's a lot of money.

But its value to Grayson, is priceless. I can not even imagine the itemized list of goodies. Heavy machinery? Wow, I'm talking a *John Deere on roids!

And that was a straight out gift to Grayson IIRC. I can not help from thinking how a big fat similar convoy would help a poor world like Dresden, in the Talbott Quad.

Which makes me wonder about humanitarian efforts on a large scale in the Honorverse. Care packages--relief efforts, from several governments in the form of big fat expensive convoys. Spread the love around so to speak.

But how much of it would actually end up where it's needed instead of in corrupt bureaucrats' pockets?


****** *


*Unless the Honorverse future has supplanted John Deere with Johnnie Puma.

It runs like a Puma. Tough as one too.

George J. Smith wrote:My Bolding

Now then Cthia, seeing as it is supposed to be the Napoleonic Wars in Space and Manticore represents England, shouldn't it be JCB instead of John Deere

Ok, my bad.

But you've left me curious. How well of a performer is a JCB? A Deere really runs like one.

cthia wrote:Which makes me wonder about humanitarian efforts on a large scale in the Honorverse. Care packages--relief efforts, from several governments in the form of big fat expensive convoys. Spread the love around so to speak.

But how much of it would actually end up where it's needed instead of in corrupt bureaucrats' pockets?

That's an issue. Consider that so much wealth is concentrated in Solarian Core Worlds, with lots and lots of people who are (1) well able to contribute to charity, (2) presumably reasonably compassionate and charitable (Old Earth would still be a post-apocalyptic hell-hole otherwise), but (3) kinda clueless about the nasty universe off their sheltered worlds. Lots of wealth flowing out to people and places that do, really, desperately need it, through middlemen who know how to work their herd and often mostly into the hands of OFS collaborators and governors.

Take another look at Cathy Montaigne's get-together in Crown of Slaves. Lots of well-meaning, wealthy Manticorans - who are, all else being equal, likelier to be a lot more aware of what crap is out there than most Sollies - with barely a clue how genetic (or other historical forms of) slavery works. And they'd be stunned at the corruption between them and their pocketbooks and warm feelings and the people who (once they're made aware of them...) need that.

Meanwhile, OFS is nominally the largest organized charity in human history, selflessly dedicated to spreading Pax Solaria and the benefits of the most successful human power ever on a purely voluntary basis to all those lost children in the cold dark. And in reality, it's the largest exploitation scheme ever, sponsored by a ramshackle exercise in conceit.

Out in the Verge, in places like Talbott, Manticore's got to deal with both the problems of worrying about pouring aid down some hole instead of where people actually need it, and of being judged another OFS by those whose lives depend on giving it a chance.

n7axw wrote:"cthia"]"John Prigent"]
Over here in England top bureaucrats are often referred to as Mandarins. That's because they're seen as arrogant, insensitive to the views of the 'common people', overpaid, and impossible to dislodge from their lucrative posts because they're never disciplined for incompetence. And that's how the Chinese Mandarins of history are seen, so the name got borrowed. What do you call them on your side of the big pond?
Cheers
John

Thanks John.

Over here they're just called Politicians. [/quote]


Or idiots...

Don[/quote]


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Mark Twain would respond "but I repeat myself......"

-- Stewart