Honorverse ramblings and musings

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:However, I thank Johnathan for making a very important point regarding my understanding and take on things. And that is the fact that the RMN initially underestimated their tech advantage. They had no way of knowing how outclassed the League would ultimately be when Alexander-Harrington&Co. were formulating their plan to splinter the League. Very profound point Johnathan-along with your others.

If they had been aware of their absolute tech advantage, would the plan have taken on a totally different shape?

Well maybe, maybe not.

Though even when I think we first heard about their contingency plans against the League (which was after opening the Talbott Quadrant, and after Oyster Bay) the main concern didn't seem to be that the SLN would roll over them. It rather seemed to be they'd be enough of a missile sponge that after rebuffing them the RMN might run short if they had to keep fighting a 2 front war against the SLN and Haven. (Plus of course having to divert their finite supply of hulls away from Haven right after they'd temporarily lost the ability to build more wouldn't have been great). So by that point ONI seemed to have known that in a straight-up head to head fight that the RMN should have been able to take anything the SLN was likely to be able to pull together. (And even then they underestimated the advantage by a significant amount - because the SLN's ships and doctrine lag behind what their basic military tech base could do. Haven did much better applying SL warship tech than the SLN did)

But even if they'd known exactly how badly a modern Apollo SD(P) could outclass anything the League built, I'm not sure it changes to broad strokes of the strategy all that much. The strategy was already built around the assumption that the RMN could win the tactical fights, but could never successfully occupy the League over the long term. I don't see that that's really changed just because the missiles are even more deadly than you thought.

The boots on the ground occupation and inspection is always a hard, man-power intensive, problem. So if you still need to avoid it (and I think they do) then you still need to do your best to encourage systems to make peace with you and stand aside from the fight. And to do that, you need to keep the moral high ground, and try to frame it as much as possible as a fight between an out-of-control Navy/bureaucracy against an alliance that would much rather have friendly relations with you. Taking your tactical advantages and using them for aggressive raiding doesn't fit into that narrative and risks ticking off the systems; potentially causing them to double down on supporting the League Navy.

Brigade XO wrote:It took Rome a long time to fall. That was split into two parts, the Western Empire which was centered around Rome and then the second stage which was the Eastern Empire around Byzantiam. Step back from the tons of detail and you find an empire racked with civil wars, unable to deal with what should have been managable external threats (the tribes around the boarders which it tried to co-opt as mercenaries) and a long list of lesser problems.

We have already seen more problems for the SL than the 20+% of members voting to not "investigate" Beowulf. We are seeing heavy duty trade and business corporations moving to try and bring back things they are loosing because of Lacoon II etc. The family of the guy who is the President of the League is getting hammered big time with the loss of Manticorian transports. It is not "just business", it is the entire system of business as far as manufactring and interstellar trade which has been crippled even if we have not seen the actual impact beyond the couple of shots related to Lacoon II, the conversation with the President and the Mandarin's discussion on the projection in loss of revenue.

Remember, we have had a lot of discussion about the impact of Lacoon II but not reallly more than broad detail of what is going to happen.

There are a lot more than Transtellars that are going to be hurting and looking for ways out of the problems they are now getting deeply into. No mater what the ultimate outcome of the Beowulf vote (and whatever the Mardarins are going to do or try to do about it) there are a lot of systems (all those who voted in support of Beowulf are the small side of the numbers) who are going to have to change policies and tactics to deal with the comming storm.

Just wait until problems like piracy and shooting disputes between Star Nations start to do more than trade diplomatic notes. The SLN is not going to be able to sit on those and attempt to deal with the GA at the same time.

No mater what the ultimate outcome of the Beowulf vote (and whatever the Mardarins are going to do or try to do about it) there are a lot of systems (all those who voted in support of Beowulf are the small side of the numbers) who are going to have to change policies and tactics to deal with the comming storm.

cthia wrote:

No mater what the ultimate outcome of the Beowulf vote (and whatever the Mardarins are going to do or try to do about it) there are a lot of systems (all those who voted in support of Beowulf are the small side of the numbers) who are going to have to change policies and tactics to deal with the comming storm.

If there is such dissention within the League, then why isn't the vote regarding Beowulf not simply a formality?

John Prigent wrote:Over here in England top bureaucrats are often referred to as Mandarins. That's because they're seen as arrogant, insensitive to the views of the 'common people', overpaid, and impossible to dislodge from their lucrative posts because they're never disciplined for incompetence. And that's how the Chinese Mandarins of history are seen, so the name got borrowed. What do you call them on your side of the big pond?
Cheers
John

Brigade XO wrote:
No mater what the ultimate outcome of the Beowulf vote (and whatever the Mardarins are going to do or try to do about it) there are a lot of systems (all those who voted in support of Beowulf are the small side of the numbers) who are going to have to change policies and tactics to deal with the comming storm.

Cthia wrote:If there is such dissention within the League, then why isn't the vote regarding Beowulf not simply a formality?

SWM wrote:Because the people who are voting are disconnected from the actual populations back home.

cthia wrote:

John Prigent wrote:Over here in England top bureaucrats are often referred to as Mandarins. That's because they're seen as arrogant, insensitive to the views of the 'common people', overpaid, and impossible to dislodge from their lucrative posts because they're never disciplined for incompetence. And that's how the Chinese Mandarins of history are seen, so the name got borrowed. What do you call them on your side of the big pond?
Cheers
John

Thanks John.

Over here they're just called Politicians.

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:
No mater what the ultimate outcome of the Beowulf vote (and whatever the Mardarins are going to do or try to do about it) there are a lot of systems (all those who voted in support of Beowulf are the small side of the numbers) who are going to have to change policies and tactics to deal with the comming storm.

Cthia wrote:If there is such dissention within the League, then why isn't the vote regarding Beowulf not simply a formality?

SWM wrote:Because the people who are voting are disconnected from the actual populations back home.

But that just raises other questions for my handicapped intellect. It seems that seceding isn't an open and shut case, that perhaps Beowulf is setting a precedent. I remember it being discussed in a past thread but didn't follow so closely, however it seems that the League would put all of its effort behind hindering Beowulf's success. And if they are not successful in their secession, then so much for any others' idea of the same.

It's all beginning to make sense to this Johnny come lately.

John Prigent wrote:Over here in England top bureaucrats are often referred to as Mandarins. That's because they're seen as arrogant, insensitive to the views of the 'common people', overpaid, and impossible to dislodge from their lucrative posts because they're never disciplined for incompetence. And that's how the Chinese Mandarins of history are seen, so the name got borrowed. What do you call them on your side of the big pond?
Cheers
John

cthia wrote:Thanks John.

Over here they're just called Politicians.

n7axw wrote:Or idiots...

Don