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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:20 pm

cthia
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JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the SLN had thousands of mothballed ships.

My bad.

They do. Ancient, decrepit ones. And either no provision for crewing them, or no realistic one. So, if you wanted to change the scenario to include them, make it happen four years down the road, with the vast majority of the force having even worse missile defenses.

There's no way we can even consider operational security holding in that case, either.

Well why the hell would the SLN want to keep so many ancient, decrepit ships? I would venture that keeping so many ships mothballed has to cost a pretty credit, if I knew what the hell mothballed entails.

What exactly is a mothballed ship? Are they kept in slips? Well that's a huge ship yard for moths. But really, I've always wondered how a mothballed ship is kept. Anchored in space, totally shut down? There's maintenance and upkeep in the anchoring facilities. And costs.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:25 pm

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:43 pm

cthia
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Hutch wrote:
cthia wrote:Okay, I was wondering, Filareta's Operation Raging Justice really didn't have a fair chance to succeed because there was no operational secrecy. Heck, the RMN knew the time, strength and even the name of the Operation.

What if operational secrecy would have been maintained? What would have been the outcome then?

And, the SLN only sent 427 ships. I've been admonished over an all-in SLN attack. Okay, but what if they really did throw 3000 ships at the RMN, and somehow were able to maintain operational secrecy? And this time they bring along CLACs.

Surprise! Let's get ready to rumbllllllllllle!!


OK, let's give the SL the best possible conditions--they get those extra 600 SD's to Filareta, along with a massive screen, and about September (instead of July), here comes ~1000 Sollie SD's with about 600 BCs. Cruisers and Destroyers--the largest Armada ever seen in Human space.

And say that somehow they assembled this without a single operational security leak over those several months, and to make it even more interesting, we'll take out the Haven ships (peace reigns, yes, but they don't know about the Sollie fleet) and cut the Graysons down to just a task force from the Protector's own (call it 30 SD's and 20 CLAC's).

But remember, in this revision, there is no reason Alice Truman or the other ships have gone to Beowulf (unless the SL pushes the Tsang alternative), so there may be more than 40 or so SD(P)'s with Honor.

But it doesn't really matter, because a significant portion of the Fleet is going to be out at Sphinx anyway (being it is closest to hyperspace and most vunerable), and without warning, they are not going to be asking questions or or devising grand stragems like Honor had the time to do.

Nope, they are grabbing every system defense pod, rolling every pod they have, and hitting the Sollies at maximum range with a shot much like D'Orville hit Tourville with at First Manticore--and with the Sollies unable to hit back and woefully unable to defend.

If anything, the death toll would have been even more one-sided and horiffic that the battle that was eventually fought. I mean, 60 SLN SD's did manage to surrender intact--if they got hit like D'Orville hit Tourville, I doubt there would have been 10 out of a 1000 left.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

I missed this post Hutch, as well as the excellent logic behind other factors that would also be affected had a single thing like operational secrecy been different. I like the way you've summed it up.

Drats. :(

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:48 pm

cthia
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Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:Okay, I was wondering, Filareta's Operation Raging Justice really didn't have a fair chance to succeed because there was no operational secrecy. Heck, the RMN knew the time, strength and even the name of the Operation.

What if operational secrecy would have been maintained? What would have been the outcome then?

And, the SLN only sent 427 ships. I've been admonished over an all-in SLN attack. Okay, but what if they really did throw 3000 ships at the RMN, and somehow were able to maintain operational secrecy? And this time they bring along CLACs.

Surprise! Let's get ready to rumbllllllllllle!!

No one, with the exception of Honor, really thought the RHN would roll the Battle of Manticore dice that way either.

****** *

I would really like to see the Solarian first string win a few battles with new technology, (setting the stage) leading up to a battle with Eighth fleet, then getting their asses spanked by Honor.

"My name is Sally. Mander to you, bitch!"

Did Honor just say that? That gal is really amped up! :lol:

The only problem with that attack is the numbers and ship types. Prior to Spindle, Battle Fleet had only around 2000 SDs in active service. And no CLACs or LACs at all. Even including Frontier Fleet, the SLN has no CLACs, no LACs and no more SDs in active service than what Battle Fleet had.

Vince, just for my own clarity, are you saying these numbers are including both Frontier and Battle Fleet ships? Or just that neither has CLACs? Or both.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:09 pm

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Ok, I'm thinking again. Here in the US, wars are a sure way to stimulate the economy. Many jobs are created, people employed, and money spent building the war machine and its support. How many people were put to work when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor?

The League is huge, and the task of playing catch up to the Haven sector should infuse billions of credits into their economy and create many jobs, giving previously disenfranchised systems a new lease on life. As a result, a higher standard of living, jobs and monies, may discourage a system's wishes to splinter from the League.

Also, as large as the League is, and although building an SD would take the same amount of time, the League could have many of them being built at once, putting them out in job lots. Mothballed ships? Heck, they probably also have mothballed shipyards. :lol:

Or, perhaps, space facilities that can quickly be diverted from whatever its original purpose to building ships. Much as what happened with American factories that were quickly retooled from making simple things like sewing machines to guns.

Has the Haven sector, once again, only managed to awaken a sleeping giant?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:15 pm

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cthia wrote:Has the Haven sector, once again, only managed to awaken a sleeping giant?

They plan to not do that. What could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:23 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:Has the Haven sector, once again, only managed to awaken a sleeping giant?

They plan to not do that. What could possibly go wrong?

Grist for the writing quill of my favorite author.

Thanks for that previous infodump link.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:47 pm

cthia
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I'd sure like to see what this looks like for the League now.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:05 pm

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cthia wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:They do. Ancient, decrepit ones. And either no provision for crewing them, or no realistic one. So, if you wanted to change the scenario to include them, make it happen four years down the road, with the vast majority of the force having even worse missile defenses.

There's no way we can even consider operational security holding in that case, either.

Well why the hell would the SLN want to keep so many ancient, decrepit ships? I would venture that keeping so many ships mothballed has to cost a pretty credit, if I knew what the hell mothballed entails.

You take out anything that will go bad, or prep it so it won't; you let out the air and such; you let vacuum keep it fresh. Indefinite storage. Virtually no upkeep. The only cost is declining to send it to the breakers, and if you need it again later, pumping air and such back in, putting the bits that need putting back, back, refitting it to the standards of modern combat (or some approximation thereto), and away you go.

The SLN has them in case they need them. Keeping them working would cost money the SLN does not have. Keeping them floating in space does not - the SLN has space, it's free and available in disgusting, terrifying quantity. It is notoriously big. (It has us outnumbered. It scares me!)

In addition to the far-fetched notion of actually needing the Reserve, it makes the theoretical looming threat value of the SLN even larger. Mess with them, even if you somehow get through hundreds of active wallers, there are thousands more that just need to be brushed off, already built.

What exactly is a mothballed ship? Are they kept in slips? Well that's a huge ship yard for moths. But really, I've always wondered how a mothballed ship is kept. Anchored in space, totally shut down? There's maintenance and upkeep in the anchoring facilities. And costs.


No slips. Space. No anchors. They can just orbit whatever is convenient. I suppose someone may have to replace a warning buoy lest they be navigational hazards, but then again - space, big. You don't run into stuff in it accidentally. Even the Reserve isn't THAT large. Heck, the nav buoy could be a total PR thing: "Yes, we worry that people may careen into the Reserve if we don't post signs. Yes, we know space is big. Yes, really big. And knowing that, we still want to post signs...."

They are, in some seriousness, still likely near some working defensive installation to prevent theft and such, at least if you haven't bribed someone first.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Hutch   » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:45 pm

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cthia wrote:Ok, I'm thinking again. Here in the US, wars are a sure way to stimulate the economy. Many jobs are created, people employed, and money spent building the war machine and its support. How many people were put to work when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor?

The League is huge, and the task of playing catch up to the Haven sector should infuse billions of credits into their economy and create many jobs, giving previously disenfranchised systems a new lease on life. As a result, a higher standard of living, jobs and monies, may discourage a system's wishes to splinter from the League.

Also, as large as the League is, and although building an SD would take the same amount of time, the League could have many of them being built at once, putting them out in job lots. Mothballed ships? Heck, they probably also have mothballed shipyards. :lol:

Or, perhaps, space facilities that can quickly be diverted from whatever its original purpose to building ships. Much as what happened with American factories that were quickly retooled from making simple things like sewing machines to guns.

Has the Haven sector, once again, only managed to awaken a sleeping giant?


More like a stumbling drunk than a sleeping giant, IMHO.

You are quite right that war often will often stimulate (at least at first) an economy by offering jobs, and 'priming' the economy.

Problem is, most of that spending has to come from the Central government in buying that war material, and has been demonstrated in ART, the SL Government is pretty much of a joke--and hamstrung by not being able to raise taxes.

So while you are quite correct in your surmise, cthia, I can't see the SL Government getting their act together in time to do any good.

Now some of the Core Worlds (or groups of them) may be a different story (of course, the MAligment might have something to say about any of those systems getting too frisky...

We shall see, eventually.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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