Honorverse ramblings and musings

Hi SWM,

Given the compartmentalization that the Allignment puts on everything, Simoes would have had no need to know, so what you are saying does make sense.

So, you might be right... but it's plain that a description did come from somewhere, whether be MacBryde in conversation or by chip. Or by Simoes who despite what I said above might know more than he should due to circumstances of which we would be unaware.

How detailed that explanation we don't know, but it is possible that there enough for Sonja and her teams to run with as per my post above.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi SWM,

Given the compartmentalization that the Allignment puts on everything, Simoes would have had no need to know, so what you are saying does make sense.

So, you might be right... but it's plain that a description did come from somewhere, whether be MacBryde in conversation or by chip. Or by Simoes who despite what I said above might know more than he should due to circumstances of which we would be unaware.

How detailed that explanation we don't know, but it is possible that there enough for Sonja and her teams to run with as per my post above.

Don

Whatever hints about the spider drive McBryde offered as teasers, Simoes had months with nothing much to do but chew over, with plenty of motivation.

And while the technical ends and uses of the spider drive and streak drive are either remotely related or not at all, we don't know that there's no theoretical relationship. Parsimony and that they both have to do with unusual relationships with hyper walls - penetrating two more safely in the streak case, tractoring them and dragging oneself along in the spider case - both suggest that the theoretical breakthroughs for them may have been either related or even one and the same.

So while we don't have direct evidence that he knows much if anything about the spider drive, there's reason to consider it possible that he can lend some small insight into it. It's not much, but it's not total wishful thinking.

OK. Perhaps some one of you can help me out.

I love Honor of the Queen, and because the movie will begin there I find myself considering it often. However, there is one aspect about the storyline that befuddles me. It is the way the Graysons treated the women aboard Fearless during the first social exchange. Graysons are such protectors of women. It is what eventually endeared them to me. I was raised the same way. My parents instilled in us to respect every man (person) right off the bat. "What a person has to earn, is your continued respect," says my father.

Yet, my father was a champion of feminism. Except, he did not believe that a woman was equal to a man. My father says that all women are Princesses. "Make no mistake, son, they are better than us. Always treat a woman accordingly."

I have five sisters and countless female cousins, and now nieces. My father would have exacted capital punishment if any of his five sons would ever have hit a woman, or disrespected them even half as bad as the Graysons did. My mother would have cried solid tears. It just isn't in us to do so. And disrespecting a woman to the tune of the Graysons initially, is tantamount to a double slap on their faces. In many ways, I consider it worse. Going in and out of buildings, I'm the one caught holding the door for five minutes until all women are through. It's just in my bones. Everyone comments on the relationship all of us brothers have with our sisters. It is uncanny, but how we are raised. My sisters remind me of Grayson Princesses. Embracing our tribal heritage, all our sisters are Indian Princesses. Understanding the Grayson way is part of me. Yet, because of it, I cannot understand the initial treatment of Manticoran women.

Some of the things reported was appalling. Trying to put their hands down a woman's shirt is shocking, and to me unbelievable for a culture that champions the protection of women. I would never be able to live down that type behavior of my own. It would destroy me emotionally inside. It rubs me eerily against the grain, and sounds like treecat claws on a chalkboard. So how can Graysons, a culture that goes ape over publically disrespecting a woman, so distastefully get it wrong themselves?

cthia, interesting speculation. I could say that this is the first appearance of the Graysons in the Honorverse and RFC was still 'evolving' them over the course of many more books and years, so some things changed, but that really doesn't attempt to answer your question, does it?

OK, the Graysons were respectful and doting upon their womenfolk...as they understood women's roles, which had been unchanging, by and large, for centuries.

Now suddenly, here were women, not only from a totally different culture, but doing things that no Grayson woman had ever done...commanding ships, giving men orders, expecting men to follow those orders...it was as if they were shaped like women, but not acting like women were supposed to act.

It confused them and their sense of what was right an wrong, and in the case of many, made them act in ways they never would have acted toward Grayson females--because since females weren't suppossed to act that way, obviously they weren't real females and could be treated disrespectfully.

I think the term is 'cognitive dissonance', but it has been many years since College psych classes so I could be wrong in that designation.

Anyway, once Honor demonstrated what she could (and did) do, the Doctrine of the Test kicked in and (in general) the men of Grayson realized that this was a new test for them, and buckled down to meet it...as they have.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Three things to consider:

First, while Grayson tradition up to that time taught men to protect women, not all Grayson men respected women. There are hints that some families and entire steadings treated women as little more than chattel--to be protected, definitely, like any valuable farm animal, but not given any rights or respect. Women in those households were expected to keep silent unless spoken to, disappear into the background, and serve the men. Daughters were only good for marrying away. In particular, a woman who was not under the protection of a man (father, husband, or at worst Steadholder) was automatically considered to be wicked and shameless. So it is far from universally true that Grayson men respected women.

Second, Grayson women simply weren't allowed to do the kinds of jobs that RMN personnel did. It was considered disrespectful of women to make them do it. For a woman to take those jobs and act like a man was wicked and shameless. Such a woman was as bad as a prostitute, and some Grayson men were ready to treat RMN women like prostitutes. Indeed, some of them probably assumed that was their primary duty on the ship.

Third, I suspect that physical abuse against RMN women did not happen right away. It probably happened after an extended period of mockery, innuendo, and general harassment. RMN crews were under orders to behave well and to ignore such things. This led some Graysons to conclude that the women were submissive like their own women, and would put up with anything. It supported their view that the shameless RMN women were little better than prostitutes.

Now, not all Grayson men had that attitude. Indeed, a number of Graysons were shocked when they learned of the disrespect that had been given to the RMN women. But low opinions of women continued in conservative steadings for a very long time.

Take a look at the story Obligated Service in Beginnings to see another view of the way Grayson men treated women. In particular, there are some bits about the attitude of Grayson naval officers toward prostitutes.

I don't know if that helps, cthia. Certainly, the behavior of those harassing Graysons was contrary to the true teachings of the Church of Humanity Unchained. But the conservatives on Grayson had been distorting those teachings for a very long time.

SWM wrote:Three things to consider:

First, while Grayson tradition up to that time taught men to protect women, not all Grayson men respected women. There are hints that some families and entire steadings treated women as little more than chattel--to be protected, definitely, like any valuable farm animal, but not given any rights or respect. Women in those households were expected to keep silent unless spoken to, disappear into the background, and serve the men. Daughters were only good for marrying away. In particular, a woman who was not under the protection of a man (father, husband, or at worst Steadholder) was automatically considered to be wicked and shameless. So it is far from universally true that Grayson men respected women.

Second, Grayson women simply weren't allowed to do the kinds of jobs that RMN personnel did. It was considered disrespectful of women to make them do it. For a woman to take those jobs and act like a man was wicked and shameless. Such a woman was as bad as a prostitute, and some Grayson men were ready to treat RMN women like prostitutes. Indeed, some of them probably assumed that was their primary duty on the ship.

Third, I suspect that physical abuse against RMN women did not happen right away. It probably happened after an extended period of mockery, innuendo, and general harassment. RMN crews were under orders to behave well and to ignore such things. This led some Graysons to conclude that the women were submissive like their own women, and would put up with anything. It supported their view that the shameless RMN women were little better than prostitutes.

Now, not all Grayson men had that attitude. Indeed, a number of Graysons were shocked when they learned of the disrespect that had been given to the RMN women. But low opinions of women continued in conservative steadings for a very long time.

Take a look at the story Obligated Service in Beginnings to see another view of the way Grayson men treated women. In particular, there are some bits about the attitude of Grayson naval officers toward prostitutes.

I don't know if that helps, cthia. Certainly, the behavior of those harassing Graysons was contrary to the true teachings of the Church of Humanity Unchained. But the conservatives on Grayson had been distorting those teachings for a very long time.

Thanks SWM. Oh, your summation helps much. A few of your points I hadn't quite considered in that light. I suppose that what gives me the most pause, apart from seeing through eyes colored by my own upbringing, is how much of a chasm there is between Grayson proper and the Grayson that initially showed up to the party. They performed a complete 180 degrees. I think my sister referred to them as chauvinistic animalistic hypocritic cretins. She commented that the heavy metals had affected their brains.

It is difficult to accept how far removed their initial actions toward Manticoran women reflect what they truly are under the surface.

It certainly makes sense that some Graysons did not respect their women and only protected them in the manner as merits one's possessions. But how can you truly protect a woman that you don't respect? The most important part of them has already been harmed by your attitude.

Though it's difficult to swallow in and of itself, it is not so much that they got it wrong. Rather that they got it very wrong. Distastefully so.

I fought back tears for Honor, and perhaps even moreso for Carolyn Wolcott, regarding the harrassment that she endured. I wanted to kick some ass for both of them! I detested the Graysons!

Hutch wrote:cthia, interesting speculation. I could say that this is the first appearance of the Graysons in the Honorverse and RFC was still 'evolving' them over the course of many more books and years, so some things changed, but that really doesn't attempt to answer your question, does it?

OK, the Graysons were respectful and doting upon their womenfolk...as they understood women's roles, which had been unchanging, by and large, for centuries.

Now suddenly, here were women, not only from a totally different culture, but doing things that no Grayson woman had ever done...commanding ships, giving men orders, expecting men to follow those orders...it was as if they were shaped like women, but not acting like women were supposed to act.

It confused them and their sense of what was right an wrong, and in the case of many, made them act in ways they never would have acted toward Grayson females--because since females weren't suppossed to act that way, obviously they weren't real females and could be treated disrespectfully.

I think the term is 'cognitive dissonance', but it has been many years since College psych classes so I could be wrong in that designation.

Anyway, once Honor demonstrated what she could (and did) do, the Doctrine of the Test kicked in and (in general) the men of Grayson realized that this was a new test for them, and buckled down to meet it...as they have.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Thanks for the response Hutch. Truthfully, I never took psychology in college. I took philosophy instead. So much for a well-rounded education, I suppose. I've heard of 'cognitive dissonance', but can't quote it on the spot. I'll be sure to look it up.

You have a point that they were confused, in so many ways, at the reality of the Manticoran women. They threw them off-balance. But it seems that deeply ingrained teachings would rule their actions.

The Graysons were so bitingly verbal in their exchanges. In fact, I recall thinking that when Marchant called Honor a harlot in public, was no different than what many of the Manticoran women were called initially. Which to me, is flavored with quite a bit of irony and even more than a bit of hypocrisy.

Indeed, several textbooks could probably be written about the difference between the Writ and the daily practice in many Grayson households, and the variation in attitudes toward women between progressives and conservatives. At the dawn of entering the galactic community, Grayson was a society filled with contradictions and ripe for a social revolution once they started interacting on an interstellar scale. I think the social structure that existed at that time could not have survived; either Grayson would become more progressive, or the conservatives would win and Grayson would withdraw into itself again.

My sister asked me a puzzling question. I have no answer and thought I'd pose it here.

As myself, she likes the Mars Trilogy. (More because of its soap opera like feel) There she was exposed to the idea of colony ships. She asked me how every system settled in the Honorverse managed to produce the same type of ship propulsion and weapons systems in the end. "If every system was so remote and cut off from each other, how did their technology travel(npi) down the same paths. Why aren't some ships powered by this and some by this and some by that," she asks.

Is there a book that describes it all. Perhaps a detailed account of the diaspora of man?

cthia wrote:My sister asked me a puzzling question. I have no answer and thought I'd pose it here.

As myself, she likes the Mars Trilogy. (More because of its soap opera like feel) There she was exposed to the idea of colony ships. She asked me how every system settled in the Honorverse managed to produce the same type of ship propulsion and weapons systems in the end. "If every system was so remote and cut off from each other, how did their technology travel(npi) down the same paths. Why aren't some ships powered by this and some by this and some by that," she asks.

Is there a book that describes it all. Perhaps a detailed account of the diaspora of man?

Probably "The Universe of Honor Harrington" in one of the short story collections does as good a job as any. Also House of Steel describes the settlement and development of Grayson and Manticore in some detail.

The initial colony efforts (like Grayson and later, Manticore), were by 'slow ship', fusion-powered but with the passengers in cyronic storage and moving at well below the speed of light. So colonization would often take centuries to get to a location.

Once a reliable hyperspace ship was developed (and it took quite some time), then ships could be sent out to the new colonies to'spread the word'. Indeed, when the original Manticore colonists arrived, they found a team already there awaiting them, having arrived via Hyperspace.

As for Grayson, they depended upon the 'fusion-powered ramscoop' sub-light ships to first exile the Faithful and then defend Grayosn from their attacks. House of Steel then picks up the story:

In 1793 PD, the Havenite merchant ship Goliath contacted both Yeltsin’s Star and the Endicott System, reestablishing contact between the descendants of Austin Grayson’s colonists and the rest of humanity.

Although additional contacts with the galactic mainstream were sporadic and infrequent, to say the least, the effects of rediscovery were profound. New technologies, whose possibility had never occurred to any Grayson or Masadan, were revealed, and a period of frenetic R&D ensued, driven by the longstanding hostility between the two star systems. Although neither Grayson nor Masada could obtain more than bits and pieces from their occasional visitors, both were aware of the dire consequences of falling behind their enemies, and both introduced domestically engineered versions of the hyperdrive, impeller drive, and Warshawski sail in remarkably short order.

The locally produced iterations of those systems were both crude and outmoded compared to more modern systems, yet in the process of essentially reinventing technologies the rest of the galaxy had enjoyed for centuries, Grayson researchers opened several promising lines of development which had not occurred to anyone else.

So the answer was diffusion, either direct or indirect, to systems because the hyperdrive allowed people to go most anywhere we were.

Are there still human systems out there that have never been contacted and still don't know about the hyperdrive? Possibly, but that is not the story the MWW has discussed.

IMHO as always. YMMV.