The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign

By the way, my last post points to the group list who I think the "true enemy" list is going to contain now: anyone in the SL or verge who thinks that business as usual is going to fly. The MAlign tops the list, followed by ANY power structure in the League who supports the old OFS system, administrators, etc. followed by those corrupted by Mesa and the transtellars. Your average man-or-woman-on the street "Sollie" is not on the list.

The SLN supports the Mandarins and all the old ways of doing business. Alot of core worlds who went to sleep for generations are probably still mostly asleep. It's the interim between the fall of the almighty SLN and the final destruction of those other groups as "galatic influencers" that's the fun space to conjecture about.

For the record (and future conversation on this issue), here are some relevant bits from CoG.


Anton speculates:

While this exchange had been going on, Alexander-Harrington had been studying Palane. There was something very intense about that scrutiny, Anton thought. He wasn’t sure what it was, exactly, but he suspected the duchess was beginning to shape some sort of plan.
For what? He could only guess—and his first guess was that Harrington had been struck by the same notion that had already come to him and Victor.

A war with the Mesan Alignment was now inevitable—in fact, it had already started. Sooner or later, Mesa was going to have to be conquered and occupied. Who, then, should be the occupying troops? Of a planet shaped by centuries of harsh slavery, and with a population more than two-thirds of which was made up of slaves or their disenfranchised descendants?

Torch didn’t begin to have the military force needed for such an occupation, of course. But most of the occupation troops could be provided by other star nations. What Torch could provide would be a cadre of specialists, in essence—people who would understand the attitudes of the majority of Mesa’s population and could serve as trusted liaisons between them and the occupying forces.
Having a Torch commander-in-chief who was familiar with the situation on the ground in Mesa due to a personal reconnaissance might prove to be invaluable, in that event. And if the Seccies and slaves of a liberated Torch later learned that that same commander-in-chief had personally risked her life scouting their homeworld in preparation for its liberation…

DuHavel eased himself into a couch at right angles to the one Jeremy was occupying. “In any event, whether or not I am indeed guilty of compromisitis, I think it’s all becoming a moot point. Or am I the only one who thinks we’re about to be tasked with providing the new anti-Manpower alliance with an occupation force for Mesa? Not all of it, of course. Not even most of it.”
Berry stared at him. “Huh?”
Jeremy smiled, very thinly. “I’m reading the tea leaves—say better, the entrails—about the same way as you, Web.”
Berry now stared at him. “Huh?”
“Same here,” chimed in Thandi. She was still on her feet, close to the door, in a parade rest stance. “In fact, I think it’s pretty much a done deal.”
Berry turned to stare at her. “Huh?”

“Sure is,” said Ruth. She started counting off on her fingers. “First, we’ve got to occupy Mesa. I leave aside for the moment the precise definition of ‘we,’ but at the very least it’ll include the Star Empire, the Republic of Haven, the Kingdom of Torch, and—this is a bit of a guess, but the odds are long in favor—Beowulf.”
“You can take that as a given also,” said Benton-Ramirez y Chou.
“Add to that Erewhon and Maya Sector,” said Victor. “Not immediately, but sooner or later it’s bound to happen.”
Jacques cocked his head at him. “Erewhon, I concur. But are you sure about Maya Sector? Barregos and Roszak are about as devoted to realpolitik as the Andermanni.”
“If ‘rayal politique’ means what I think it means,” said Berry, “I think you’re misjudging them a little. Luiz Roszak, anyway. I don’t know Oravil Barregos.”
“It doesn’t matter,” said Anton. “Cold-blooded self-interest will drive them toward us just as quickly as whatever shreds of idealism they still possess.” A bit grudgingly, he added: “Which are some pretty big shreds, at least in the case of Roszak.”
“To get back to the point,” said Ruth, “once everybody figures out that we have to occupy Mesa sooner or later”—she held up another finger—“it won’t take them long to realize that sooner is way better than later. That’s because—”
Another finger came up. “A big part of this war is the propaganda front. Most people in the Solarian League still don’t believe our version of what’s happening. The single biggest step we could take to start turning that around is to overrun Mesa. Fast and hard. That way we can—hopefully—get access to their own records.”

“All the more reason for a quick and decisive intervention,” said Victor. “And, to come back to where we started, all the more reason for an occupying army that can’t be bamboozled by the local authorities. Most of the troops will have to be provided by others, since Torch’s army doesn’t begin to be large enough. But if Torch provides…what should we call them?”
“Reconnaissance and liaison units,” said Thandi.
“Yes, that. We’d be a long ways toward gaining the unstinting allegiance and trust of about two-thirds of the population.”
“It’s more than that,” said Ruth. “Full citizens don’t make up more than thirty percent of Mesa’s population. About sixty percent are outright slaves, and the remainder are the descendants of slaves who were freed centuries ago when Mesa still allowed manumission.”
Jacques pursed his lips. “How many occupying armies in history have ever enjoyed that advantage?”

And that should be sufficient food for thought.

Press on.

JeffEngel wrote:No occupation is going to command adequate respect out of the 70% of Mesa who aren't citizens without Torch's participation, and the people monitoring those districts are going to be a lot more successful doing it if they've got that kind of cred. If that takes an occupation administration that's got, say, the Beowulf regular military as the senior partner with Torch, serving as the public face of the occupation for "moderates" who care about every single Mesan of the slaver class and make mouth noises about caring for their victims, fine. They'd still be handy for minimizing lynchings and helping assure that 30% that, if they're not too invested in the slave trade and are willing to accept that 70% as their equal fellow citizens, Mesa can still be their home too going forward.

Really; you think an occupation force from Manticore, with possible help from Haven and Beowulf (three nations with some of the best records of anti-slavery work and also the some of the most accepting of freed slaves) aren't going to have cred with the slaves and seccies?

Torch might have more - or it might get viewed as an untrusted upstart. But those three have huge cred on their own. I do think some people from Torch would be useful as liaisons, but I don't think they're essential to the success of the operation.

And it's not like Torch has an exclusive on ex-slaves in positions of power. We know there are a surprising percentage of them in the RMN (and in the BSC, and presumably the Beowulf System Defense Force); so even without Torch it's not like freed slaves (or their descendants) won't be represented.

JeffEngel wrote:But if you're tasked as a primary liaison to 70% of the occupied population - the 70% not represented by the government that's just been overthrown - well, if you're not in command of the occupation, if it's going to be an effective occupation, you've got to be one of the most senior and respected partners in it at least.

All of my arguments were aimed against the idea that Torch would be in command of the Mesan citizens as well as everyone else, which is what stealthseeker's original statement implied. He didn't mention anyone else being in command.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:No occupation is going to command adequate respect out of the 70% of Mesa who aren't citizens without Torch's participation, and the people monitoring those districts are going to be a lot more successful doing it if they've got that kind of cred. If that takes an occupation administration that's got, say, the Beowulf regular military as the senior partner with Torch, serving as the public face of the occupation for "moderates" who care about every single Mesan of the slaver class and make mouth noises about caring for their victims, fine. They'd still be handy for minimizing lynchings and helping assure that 30% that, if they're not too invested in the slave trade and are willing to accept that 70% as their equal fellow citizens, Mesa can still be their home too going forward.

Really; you think an occupation force from Manticore, with possible help from Haven and Beowulf (three nations with some of the best records of anti-slavery work and also the some of the most accepting of freed slaves) aren't going to have cred with the slaves and seccies?

Torch might have more - or it might get viewed as an untrusted upstart. But those three have huge cred on their own. I do think some people from Torch would be useful as liaisons, but I don't think they're essential to the success of the operation.

And it's not like Torch has an exclusive on ex-slaves in positions of power. We know there are a surprising percentage of them in the RMN (and in the BSC, and presumably the Beowulf System Defense Force); so even without Torch it's not like freed slaves (or their descendants) won't be represented.

I don't think that the Cherwell Convention enforcers are going to be without credit entirely among the seccies and better informed ex-slaves. But I don't think it's going to compare adequately to actual ex-slaves from a nation mostly composed of them whose military is mostly ex-Ballroom sorts and is the effective heir to the Ballroom. All those things that make Torch a bogeyman for the "moderate" governments of the League make them one of us for Mesa's slave class.

There's a big difference between people who defend you out of principles they can take or leave if they have to and include some liberated slaves, and people for whom that legacy is an identity.

Something else about Torch that hasn't come up in this: Torch isn't a planet solely of ex-slaves. It's also got a population - albeit small, but large enough to include examples and representatives - of non-slaves who stood up in defense of the slaves with whom they worked and earned the respect and fellow citizenship of them. That's a lesson that both sides of Mesa's social divide should witness: the two of them have a possible future together that's not on the far side of firing squads and neural disruptors. Never having had that social divide to get over means that Manticore, Haven, and Beowulf cannot serve as that sort of example, one Mesa badly needs. That's not going to be a central part of figures for garrison manpower, I'm sure, but it does mean a critical use for a visible role for Torch in reconstruction of Mesa.

A few thoughts on Mesa.
You already have Thandi and Victor on site so those pieces are in place. The former goverment of Mesa "knows" Thandi is there, certianly the Peaceforce General does and she is actually (the general) is in a practical position to be a working conduit and military commander of (non-slave/non-seccie) local Mesa forces.

The leader of the Neu Rostok gang is now widely known as the leader of the uprising/resistance and was more or less discussed as political leadership (by our friends on site) including the conversation of who would be able to provide said leadership "if they survive" the uprising. It was one of the things Victor mentioned in the conversation as to why the gang leader should do it.
I just can't recall the guy's name now but he actually has very practical experience governing. He is a "crime boss" but he ran is city (those towers were essentily small cities) with a consistent set of rules, more or less evenly enforced and now has a much wider group of people who both know what he has done for the seccies, and that he had/has an efficent operation.

Once the ships that came into the system get through sorting out the hyper-capable ships in-system, NOBODY is going anywhere from Mesa without dealing with the people who hold the orbitals. There is time to sort out, or find if they have gone to ground if they haven't already gotten away, most of the people that Torch, Manticore, Beowulf and others want.

Between the Peaceforce General, the leader of the Neu Rostok gang, various other local leaders (all those cities & towns that joined the resistance) and the guarantee of intervention by the military forces in orbit, (Do you really want to have non-medan Marines come looking for you?), the bloodletting shouldn't be on the scale of the one on Torch. There will still be some, perhaps quite a lot, but not the wholesale slaughter. Amoung the things that will mitigage against it is an actual fleet in orbit and the existance of substantial local Mesan military and police/security forces that are armed and have mobility. The "security forces" provided by Mesa on Verdant Vista/Torch were most likely nowhere in the class or capabilty of anything on Mesa down to the Regional level military/security forces. Neu Rostok was a case of the Mesa security and military trying to get into a ceramicrete tower, Defending that kind of tower if you have Peaceforce units or the reginonal militia etc on the inside or if you set up a perimeter around one of those executive onclaves described is a vastly different story. Slaves on a rampage really will be a "sticks vs machine-guns" story.

The current mannaging Board of Mesa is going to more-or-less have to work with the fleet in control of the orbitals. One thing I expect, since it is probably Mike and she knows about what went on at Torch (not exactly a secret since it made the Solly Press) is broadcast plea/instructions to stand in-place, NOT to attack anybody or you suffer the consequences under military law. No matter who the fleet is under command of, they are probably going to make the same demand since they really don't want to be blamed for abetting multiple mob killings and bloodshed
Unless, of course, this is part of the Alignment Navey and they are going to butcher everything in the system including a very effective EE strike on the planet leaving nothing alive but a few microbes or virus- not likely but you can't tell with Albrecht in charge.

Yes, I still believe that Torch needs to be administratively in charge of the occupation of Mesa. But as I said before, or at least as I tried to say before, with all the other interested parties that are going to be involved in wanting a piece of Mesa, Torch is not going to have “carte blanche” to misbehave in any way. Besides, Torch is not the Ballroom and Queen Berry would never accept any Ballroom like behavior from any of her subjects. Queen Berry would have any who might try to act in that way quickly brought up on charges to face justice.

I thank “Hutch” for his posting (second one on page 12) that shows there is some text evidence that the authors are thinking of having Torch heavily involved in the occupation of Mesa. Maybe they're not thinking of having them in charge of things as I am, but heavily involved none the less. And Thandi, Cachat and Zilwicki are already heavily involved with current events taking place on Mesa, plus, they are all associated with Torch in some way. So Torch, through it's representatives of Thandi, Cachat and Zilwicki have a tremendous political foothold in Mesa already. Then add to that all of Torch's other acumens, Torch to me becomes the obvious choice to administer the occupation of Mesa.

Mesa is going to require a massive building program to relieve crowding in living spaces. Someone mentioned that some of the 30% who had been in charge may choose to leave Mesa. Well, some of the 70% may also choose to leave Mesa and go to Torch. The situation on Mesa is going to be extremely fluid. Who knows how it will all eventually work out.

It should be interesting and makes for wonderful speculation.

Someone in this thread made a point of the fact that invading through a wormhole is in general a bad idea. That person also included thoughts attributed to Mr. Weber that confirmed this line of reasoning.

Another post, regarding the “twins” location, stated that more than likely the MA has now built forts at the twins to take care of any further incursions through the Torch wormhole.

But how likely is it that such a fort would be built there? The MA had to rush a Mannerheim squadron to the location to take care of the survey ship under pretenses of protecting Mannerheim interests because MA didn't have the resources for that. So now the MA is suddenly going to find the resources to build a fort in that location? Doesn't seem likely. And besides, the wormhole that lead to the twins from Felix is suppose to be one of the 2 “hidden” wormholes! How could the MA suddenly start sending enough resources down a wormhole they are trying to keep secrete to build a fort? Again this doesn't seem likely. The most likely scenario is that they keep some small squadron of cruisers on station at the most.

With that in mind, the story line that I would like to see, is one that in some way makes the Torch wormhole more important than it has been so far. In some way the importance of the Torch wormhole becomes known. A plan is hatched to send a simultaneous transit of a squadron of SD's through the wormhole. Those SD's defeat the cruisers that are on station and in doing so discover that they are Mannerheim ships. This opens up a whole can of worms for Mannerheim and a lot of ships will start sniffing around it's neighborhood. Or, it could be that the ships remain unidentified but as those ships are there and they didn't get there from Torch, it's evidence that another wormhole exists. A survey ship comes through from Torch, finds the twin wormhole and a transit in immediately made to Felix, a known and supposedly mapped system, by Mannerheim.

Lots of interesting things could start happening.

An SD fighting without a wedge, sidewalls or CMs against a squadron of cruisers at 2m KM bombarding it with missiles will get turned into swiss cheese and do no damage to the cruisers. Hell, at a million KM they can probably take it with energy weapons, though they might take some losses.

But it won't be a bunch of cruisers, it will be a bunch of mines.

RE: Stealthseeker's thoughts about Torch, I think I may see a potential pursuable thread thought. Under the assumption that the Mesan Navy wasn't 100% "in system" when the great big hyper signature arrived, but some of them were... and likely surrendered.

In the near future, how would the MSDF know which Mesan ships are legit and which ones have become spy ships? Get the download of a crew manifest, link it with a face, and then use Nightingale or a variant to alter the identity of the "commander", and put some ONI command level officers aboard.

Any hmmmms.... on whether this would work?