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Question about Beowulf tactics

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:48 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
SWM wrote:I had thought that there was something in the Pearls specifically saying that hyper generators will not fit on a missile, but I guess not. The Pearls do state that hyper generators are very large; the size of a courier boat is primarily due to the size of the alpha nodes and the hyper generator. At a wild guess, the smallest a hyper missile could be is the size of a LAC; your opinion may vary.

As for the microjumping capability, you are hypothesizing new tech. It is impossible to properly discuss new tech because (by definition) we have no text evidence by which to judge whether it is possible. All you can do is hand-wave. It is not a productive conversation.



Ahhh yes, maybe it is useless and unproductive, but imagining something new and different is a great deal of fun. As proof, I give you this whole series of Honorverse books. (and many others)

I think the idea is that we need something better grounded in the Honorverse's known state-of-the-art to really get our teeth into.

Given what we know, very rapid and very accurate microjumps aren't on the table or in the foreseeable future. For all I know, the current hypergenerator cycle times may be almost a law of nature, they may represent a fairly stable state of the art, or they may be a state of the art that's open to significant near-term improvement. (I'd plunk down for the fairly stable state of the art as a default assumption.) Most of us are going to hold back real enthusiastic forum speculation to the ideas that don't strike us as a big departure from what we figure is possible.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by akira.taylor   » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:06 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:<SNIP>
Keep in mind that as the SLN is heading in, the RMN isn't going to be sitting quietly on the sidelines waiting for the call. They're going to be using Hermes buoys, etc. to freak out the Sollie command officers, and tell them to to "state their intentions" and have ships headed in the right direction at a moments notice, full speed ahead, as that also puts the RMN SD(p)s in better position to "defend the terminus" and in the process put put any SLN formation in an "about to be defeated in detail" mousetrap. That being the case, Holman Sanders can simply invite the RMN for joint exercises any time Beowulf wants to because they don't give a flying (expletive) about what the Mandarin's think any more.
<SNIP>


Manticore won't ask the SLN to "state their intentions" - Manticore has no right to issue such requests/demands in Beowulf space (no more than the US can in Canadian waters). What Manticore could do is point out that it feels a state of war exists between it and the League Navy, and since there are all these League SDs here, it is going to go hunting (that is, "we're at war, and going to start shooting at you - unless you want to surrender real quick?").
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:47 pm

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akira.taylor wrote:Manticore won't ask the SLN to "state their intentions" - Manticore has no right to issue such requests/demands in Beowulf space (no more than the US can in Canadian waters). What Manticore could do is point out that it feels a state of war exists between it and the League Navy, and since there are all these League SDs here, it is going to go hunting (that is, "we're at war, and going to start shooting at you - unless you want to surrender real quick?").
I think the official reason they'd ask is because of the state of war, any armada of SLN ships could eventually represent a threat to the terminus. In reality it would simply be the opportunity to use an FTL based link such as an Hermes buoy to slap yet an HD reminder right across some Sollie admiral's face that "this is not going to turn out well for you". What I don't think is that the RMN/GA partners or Beowulf are interested in allowing is "any attacking SLN forces to simply withdraw" this time around. Any incoming SLN ships are either gonna be toasted, blasted, or captured once they are forced to drop their wedges.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:04 am

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akira.taylor wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:<SNIP>
Keep in mind that as the SLN is heading in, the RMN isn't going to be sitting quietly on the sidelines waiting for the call. They're going to be using Hermes buoys, etc. to freak out the Sollie command officers, and tell them to to "state their intentions" and have ships headed in the right direction at a moments notice, full speed ahead, as that also puts the RMN SD(p)s in better position to "defend the terminus" and in the process put put any SLN formation in an "about to be defeated in detail" mousetrap. That being the case, Holman Sanders can simply invite the RMN for joint exercises any time Beowulf wants to because they don't give a flying (expletive) about what the Mandarin's think any more.
<SNIP>


Manticore won't ask the SLN to "state their intentions" - Manticore has no right to issue such requests/demands in Beowulf space (no more than the US can in Canadian waters). What Manticore could do is point out that it feels a state of war exists between it and the League Navy, and since there are all these League SDs here, it is going to go hunting (that is, "we're at war, and going to start shooting at you - unless you want to surrender real quick?").


I like this. I had always thought in terms of the attack being directed at Beowulf but there is no reason that the RMN couldn't just announce that they considered all these ships in space near it's terminus as representing a threat to that terminus and attack the SLN before it even gets to the Beowulf hyper limit. Great idea!

Though I still say that the RMN would have a quick reaction force sitting in hyperspace that would pop out close to the SLN fleet to get the job done.

But say that the SLN gets inside of the Beowulf hyper limit and the RMN needs to chase them down. The fastest thing the RMN has are the LAC's. What would it be like to have an assault of 1,400 LAC's racing up the back end of the SLN fleet? If the SD(P)'s stay out of SLN missile range they could let the LAC's race ahead. The LAC's are more than capable of defend themselves against a SLN missile salvo and when the LAC's got close enough they could let loose with their own missiles. they are lighter strength missiles but they would be firing 5,600 of them at a time at close range while the SD(p)s, once they got close enough, could shoot salvos over their heads. (so to speak) The LAC's could concentrate on the lighter ships and let the SD(P)s go after the larger. And the heavens help any fleet of ships that let 1,400 LAC's close to energy range. (visions of cavalry charges with lances and cannons shooting over head dance in my mind) :)
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:15 am

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StealthSeeker wrote:Though I still say that the RMN would have a quick reaction force sitting in hyperspace that would pop out close to the SLN fleet to get the job done.


Why is it so difficult to accept the textev that there will be NO RMN involvement or presence until after the vote and even then not immediately.

The Beowulf SDF, backed by freighter loads of Mk23 MDM and/or Mk 25 SysDM -- with or without Apollo and a fully functioning Mycroft network -- doesn't need their help and definitely don't need the political fallout from a RMN presence; observer nor assistance.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:15 am

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Shipping them loads of missiles they can't use is kind of pointless. Unless Beowulf has current RMN standard fire control systems on their ships they can't do anything with them.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:48 am

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StealthSeeker wrote:
I like this. I had always thought in terms of the attack being directed at Beowulf but there is no reason that the RMN couldn't just announce that they considered all these ships in space near it's terminus as representing a threat to that terminus and attack the SLN before it even gets to the Beowulf hyper limit. Great idea!


Why even announce it? A state of war exists. The SLN is fair game wherever it might be found...Act accordingly.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:13 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Well the powered endurance of an MDM is 3 [edit2: 9] minutes (and 65 million km) -- though of course you can reach longer by adding ballistic phases. [edit2: but the furthest distance the MDM can cover in 4 minutes appears to be 22.7 million km; using 2 full power drives + a half power drive for 120 seconds] So if the SDs wait until they see the missiles launch it takes them at least a minute longer to hyper out that it takes for the first wave to arrive. (Ouch) [edit2: nope; but within 22.7 million km they can't react quickly enough]

Now they could try playing guessing games and hit the button based on when they think the defenders will launch. Get that right and they could hyper out before the missiles arrive. But that's risky, because if you guess wrong after you're inside about 78 million km [edit2: 75.4; but at 10 minutes] and you eat a missile salvo. (That's how far an MDM with a 60 second ballistic phase before the final drive can travel)

Plus of course once you jump out any missile you launched are flying dumb. So even if you stay far enough back to jump free the defender can force you to deplete missiles in wasted attacks.


Oh, and there nothing stopping the defenders from putting a few ships or pods scattered out on the approaches so you're not entirely sure where that 78 million km [edit2: 22.7 million km] 'line of death' really might actually be drawn.

Edit: RFC seems to have carefully stacked the deck so that even outside the hyper-limit hyperspace can't really be a tactical factor in battle; just a strategic one. (I'm categorizing something like a Paul Revere as a strategic gambit; and hypering away from missiles as a tactical one)

Edit 2 - a day later: I realized I'm an idiot and used the wrong endurance for MDMs. At max range they have 3 minutes per drive!. Oops. (Also I screwed up my spreadsheet and had some residual acceleration in my ballistic phase)

That was embarrassing. I realized I had a major mental screwup with yesterdays post (despite looking a 3 180 second drive times I was still thinking total flight time was 3 minutes) and also had an error in the spreadsheet that applied the 1st drive average acceleration even to ballistic phases of missile flight.

Didn't realize it until I went back to clean it up and add the ability for it to calculate with a ballistic phase between either (or both) of the intervals between drive activations.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:19 am

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n7axw wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:
I like this. I had always thought in terms of the attack being directed at Beowulf but there is no reason that the RMN couldn't just announce that they considered all these ships in space near it's terminus as representing a threat to that terminus and attack the SLN before it even gets to the Beowulf hyper limit. Great idea!


Why even announce it? A state of war exists. The SLN is fair game wherever it might be found...Act accordingly.

Don
Because they're primarily at war only with pieces of the SLN that are following the Mandarin's directives or acting stupidly when the RMN says "get the hell out of our space or the way" a la Spindle, Manticore, and Saltash, not every SLN ship and crewman in space. Act accordingly now means giving the Sollies the opportunity to either withdraw (occasionally), abandon ship (usually), or drop their wedges and surrender (preferably).

Even at the captured wormholes, the GA/RMN goal isn't to instantly launch on SLN ships unless push comes to shove. That said, as the Havenite's realized early on, Manticoran commanders don't back down worth a damn, so the size of the explosions pretty much corresponds to how willing a Sollie admiral is to keep his "they're uppity neobarbs who need to be smacked down" blinders on.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Vince   » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:17 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Snip...

What I don't think is that the RMN/GA partners or Beowulf are interested in allowing is "any attacking SLN forces to simply withdraw" this time around. Any incoming SLN ships are either gonna be toasted, blasted, or captured once they are forced to drop their wedges.

In the Honorverse, once a ship voluntarily lowers its wedge, it is the faster than light signal to the opposing forces that it has surrendered. And if it involuntarily lowers its wedge (wedge loss due to battle damage), it is most likely either an expanding cloud of plasma or a hulk. In either case, it is no threat to the opposing forces and will no longer be targeted.

I don't think we have ever seen a case of where a warship that loses its wedge as a result of battle damage continues to fight--if a ship takes so much damage that its wedge goes down but without being destroyed outright, it is mission-killed.
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