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Spider Pods

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Re: Spider Pods
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:48 pm

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Valen123456 wrote:Lots of people have already pointed out how impractical self propelled pods are currently due to the numerous technical troubles they face. That does not mean that they might not be one of some future technical developments further down the road, just that they are not practical enough to be viable in the series present time frame.

Regarding the spider drive however, how about this alternative? You create a pod with a single "keel" of spider drive nodes, then mate the pod up with at least three other spider pods around a scaffolding, or have built in physical connectors, which holds them together. Other space consuming systems like power, AI control nodes, and sensor packages could then be distributed around the pods i.e. one carries the power systems, one the AI control, and the other the sensors. This would mean that each one would be immobile on their own, but it allows you to build up a reasonable salvo from a single "trio" without having to pack all the same systems into a single pod and so oversize it. You could then build up trains of these "trio"'s of spider pods that maneuver like a single ship, with multiple redundant variants to fall back on in case of mishaps during the travel time. Then when they are ready to fire, they disengage from one another, a little thruster push to separate and line up, then launch their missiles when in range.

Thoughts?

I'm wondering about the point of building these as three separate units that have to be deployed in a 1:1:1 ratio to work, as opposed to a single spider drive pod/bus/super-pod/auto-LAC/whatever.

If it's a matter of deploying them individually and then assembling them outside the ship in space, well, you do get a more flexible time carrying them, but trying to do that under combat conditions just begs for critical failures and enemy interference.

If you carry and launch them all assembled already, then you're carrying and launching something that's exactly the same size and configuration as the single unit alternative, so the single unit alternative would be no less handy and probably a lot better off structurally.

I suppose a massively modular approach may make for fewer "hangar queens", but you're sure to pay too much for that with the connections they need that the single unit alternative would not, and I don't recall any evidence of many standard pods being stuck in the ship for equipment failure, and the rates for full-up LAC's are very low. For that matter, the connections to tie the pod-bits together represent another way to fail, probably more than enough to make up for the interchangeability all on its own.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:16 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Valen123456 wrote:Lots of people have already pointed out how impractical self propelled pods are currently due to the numerous technical troubles they face. That does not mean that they might not be one of some future technical developments further down the road, just that they are not practical enough to be viable in the series present time frame.

Regarding the spider drive however, how about this alternative? You create a pod with a single "keel" of spider drive nodes, then mate the pod up with at least three other spider pods around a scaffolding, or have built in physical connectors, which holds them together. Other space consuming systems like power, AI control nodes, and sensor packages could then be distributed around the pods i.e. one carries the power systems, one the AI control, and the other the sensors. This would mean that each one would be immobile on their own, but it allows you to build up a reasonable salvo from a single "trio" without having to pack all the same systems into a single pod and so oversize it. You could then build up trains of these "trio"'s of spider pods that maneuver like a single ship, with multiple redundant variants to fall back on in case of mishaps during the travel time. Then when they are ready to fire, they disengage from one another, a little thruster push to separate and line up, then launch their missiles when in range.

Thoughts?

I'm wondering about the point of building these as three separate units that have to be deployed in a 1:1:1 ratio to work, as opposed to a single spider drive pod/bus/super-pod/auto-LAC/whatever.

If it's a matter of deploying them individually and then assembling them outside the ship in space, well, you do get a more flexible time carrying them, but trying to do that under combat conditions just begs for critical failures and enemy interference.

If you carry and launch them all assembled already, then you're carrying and launching something that's exactly the same size and configuration as the single unit alternative, so the single unit alternative would be no less handy and probably a lot better off structurally.

I suppose a massively modular approach may make for fewer "hangar queens", but you're sure to pay too much for that with the connections they need that the single unit alternative would not, and I don't recall any evidence of many standard pods being stuck in the ship for equipment failure, and the rates for full-up LAC's are very low. For that matter, the connections to tie the pod-bits together represent another way to fail, probably more than enough to make up for the interchangeability all on its own.

Seems overly complex to me, tailor made for Murphy to put in an appearance, and that could end up giving away the secret of the spider drive well before its time.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by Relax   » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:00 pm

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Valen123456 wrote:
You create a pod with a single "keel" of spider drive nodes, then mate the pod up with at least three other spider pods around a scaffolding, or have built in physical connectors, which holds

Thoughts?


You lose on reliability. You lose on simplicity. You lose mass. You lose missile packing ability. You gain possibility of internal storage efficiency.

Seems like a whole lot of losing going on for very little gain.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by Valen123456   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:27 pm

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Relax wrote:
Valen123456 wrote:
You create a pod with a single "keel" of spider drive nodes, then mate the pod up with at least three other spider pods around a scaffolding, or have built in physical connectors, which holds

Thoughts?


You lose on reliability. You lose on simplicity. You lose mass. You lose missile packing ability. You gain possibility of internal storage efficiency.

Seems like a whole lot of losing going on for very little gain.


Fair enough, although its still in RFC hands, my personal thoughts are that we are far more likely to see more remote or drone like weapons in the Honorverse future since there is no viable options for very close ship-to-ship combat. Since the Alignments spider drive approach seems much more based on long range stealthy attacks I can see them potentially deploying these types of weapons first.

So much of Spider drive combat seems based on submarine style maneuvers and stealth, and you simply do not have subs fight like surface warships, so why should spider drive based tactics bare any resemblance to standard combat. Combat 101 is not to fight like enemy expects you too, and the Alignment most definitely are not.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by Relax   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:03 pm

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Valen123456 wrote:
Fair enough, although its still in RFC hands, my personal thoughts are that we are far more likely to see more remote or drone like weapons in the Honorverse future since there is no viable options for very close ship-to-ship combat. Since the Alignments spider drive approach seems much more based on long range stealthy attacks I can see them potentially deploying these types of weapons first.

So much of Spider drive combat seems based on submarine style maneuvers and stealth, and you simply do not have subs fight like surface warships, so why should spider drive based tactics bare any resemblance to standard combat. Combat 101 is not to fight like enemy expects you too, and the Alignment most definitely are not.


Because
1) Graser torpedos already exist for stealth when missiles with obvious missile wedges will not do
2) Basic physics. Acclerate a gaggle of pods and let em drift to the target. MDM missile range takes care of the rest. The vector of drift does not have to be even close to the targets for MDM's to make attack runs.
3) I expect to see Spider drive equipped control platforms lined up for LOS laser command because obviously if you start YAMMERING away telling your missiles where to go and what aspect of a ship to attack from your ship, it is rather obvious where you are unless you can get this communication array in place MUCH farther from where you are.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by ericth   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:16 pm

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I expect that a spider drive installation may scale up and down in ways an impeller would not. With an impeller ring, you either have one or you dont. A spider drive might be at least minimally functional with one mega-tractor per keel, making for a smaller installation.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:58 pm

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ericth wrote:I expect that a spider drive installation may scale up and down in ways an impeller would not. With an impeller ring, you either have one or you dont. A spider drive might be at least minimally functional with one mega-tractor per keel, making for a smaller installation.

Another issue to do with scaling -
Impeller drives come in two flavors: variable speed for ships (and LAC's, small craft and - this one I'm shakier on - drones) and fixed speed for missiles. Missile drive acceleration is also vastly greater, in part at least due to not having to worry about pasting the crew - possibly entirely because of that, but I'm shakier on that point as well. I don't think we have any evidence of a spider drive counterpart to the missile impeller drive. I don't think we have any against it either, so it remains a question mark. If it scales down without having the different features of ship vs. missile impeller drive types, spider drive missiles could be a lot more flexible in their flight profiles than impeller drive ones but not able to radically alter their initial velocity so quickly.
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:03 pm

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Relax wrote:
Valen123456 wrote:
You create a pod with a single "keel" of spider drive nodes, then mate the pod up with at least three other spider pods around a scaffolding, or have built in physical connectors, which holds

Thoughts?


You lose on reliability. You lose on simplicity. You lose mass. You lose missile packing ability. You gain possibility of internal storage efficiency.

Seems like a whole lot of losing going on for very little gain.


Valen123456 also loses points for text: the author wrote that the reason the spider ships had 3 keels was to stabilize the ship, and control the vector of travel. Three keels is the minimum you are going to be in control of your flight.

Rob
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Re: Spider Pods
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:48 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Valen123456 also loses points for text: the author wrote that the reason the spider ships had 3 keels was to stabilize the ship, and control the vector of travel. Three keels is the minimum you are going to be in control of your flight.


Valen doesn't lose many points because he proposed pods that have to join up with two other pods to make a complete spider drive. It's a dumb idea, but it at least recognizes the need for three keels for a functional spider drive.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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