Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests

Future Point Defense Options

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Relax   » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:40 pm

Relax
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

kzt wrote:
Relax wrote:Uh not really. Why? No reason to take the drive unit out. Just make the missile longer. The ONLY reason this might not be possible is the pods themselves cannot accommodate a slightly longer missile anymore. Sounds HIGHLY unlikely when they are producing 4 drive system defense missiles in "probably" the same pod. I could possibly see the system defense pods being new design for longer duration.
.

This results in the not so minor problem that the missile doesn't fit in the SD(p) missile pods, and the newly designed and built missile pods may or may not fit in the pod bays.


WoW!

You almost read past the 4th sentence of my post.

Your dedication to credibility is outstanding.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SWM   » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:43 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Weird Harold wrote:
SWM wrote:And in that highlighted section is the statement "with a drive ring on the carrier missile removed".


With the qualifier "or four Mk9 Vipers". Four Mk30/31 CMs will fit without removing a drive ring. The drive ring only needs to be removed if you install vipers. Any other CM will fit four.

No, the qualifier applied to the MK30 and 31, as well. There is no comma or other divider in the sentence. MaxxQ was saying that you could fit 4 of the smallest Manticoran counter-missiles in a MK-23 missile body only if you took a drive out of the MK-23.

I guess we need to ask MaxxQ what he meant here.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Relax   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:33 am

Relax
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

In that thread, MaxxQ also said, as far as he knew, and RFC never corrected him, that the much older and smaller ~1Mkm ranged CM's were not retconned and would fit inside an SDM cap bird.

So, much older, smaller ~1Mkm ranged birds would probably fit 5 or 7 into an Mk-16/MK-23 if 3 or 4 can fit inside an SDM canister.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:07 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

Relax wrote:In that thread, MaxxQ also said, as far as he knew, and RFC never corrected him, that the much older and smaller ~1Mkm ranged CM's were not retconned and would fit inside an SDM cap bird.

So, much older, smaller ~1Mkm ranged birds would probably fit 5 or 7 into an Mk-16/MK-23 if 3 or 4 can fit inside an SDM canister.


I don't think there's textev what kind of drive is mounted on the old canister. It's definitely not an all-up missile drive, as canisters weren't fired to intercept incoming missiles outside of shipboard CM launcher range - they were used alongside each other.

There may be no drives, with the canister relying upon the shipboard launcher to get it clear of the ship's wedge. If so, adding a SDM or EDM ranged drive and its power source(whether capacitors or fusion) would eat some of the internal volume previously used for CMs.

Frankly, the problem basically is missile range has increased and countermissile range hasn't increased nearly as much.

Now, there's a quote from Scotty about the Havenites being capable of building MDMs, even using off-the-shelf components.

They're going to need to go to bigger CMs than the Vipers. Possibly all the way up to old SDM sizes for at least some of their countermissiles, with all the associated mass penalties, which include fewer CM launchers, fewer CMs in the magazine spaces, slower firing rate and eating hull volume that could be assigned to more effective closer-in missile defense.
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SWM   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:26 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

munroburton wrote:
Relax wrote:In that thread, MaxxQ also said, as far as he knew, and RFC never corrected him, that the much older and smaller ~1Mkm ranged CM's were not retconned and would fit inside an SDM cap bird.

So, much older, smaller ~1Mkm ranged birds would probably fit 5 or 7 into an Mk-16/MK-23 if 3 or 4 can fit inside an SDM canister.


I don't think there's textev what kind of drive is mounted on the old canister. It's definitely not an all-up missile drive, as canisters weren't fired to intercept incoming missiles outside of shipboard CM launcher range - they were used alongside each other.

There may be no drives, with the canister relying upon the shipboard launcher to get it clear of the ship's wedge. If so, adding a SDM or EDM ranged drive and its power source(whether capacitors or fusion) would eat some of the internal volume previously used for CMs.

Frankly, the problem basically is missile range has increased and countermissile range hasn't increased nearly as much.

Now, there's a quote from Scotty about the Havenites being capable of building MDMs, even using off-the-shelf components.

They're going to need to go to bigger CMs than the Vipers. Possibly all the way up to old SDM sizes for at least some of their countermissiles, with all the associated mass penalties, which include fewer CM launchers, fewer CMs in the magazine spaces, slower firing rate and eating hull volume that could be assigned to more effective closer-in missile defense.

I believe you are right--the old canisters had no drive at all. It just popped out the launch tube, accelerated by the grav coils in the tube, then jettisoned the counter-missiles once it was outside the wedge. It was just a canister, no drive, no sensors, nothing but a container.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SWM   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:43 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Relax wrote:In that thread, MaxxQ also said, as far as he knew, and RFC never corrected him, that the much older and smaller ~1Mkm ranged CM's were not retconned and would fit inside an SDM cap bird.

So, much older, smaller ~1Mkm ranged birds would probably fit 5 or 7 into an Mk-16/MK-23 if 3 or 4 can fit inside an SDM canister.

Okay, I can accept that the old 1 Mkm range counter-missiles might fit into a MK-23 with minimal modification. Controlling those old, minimally functional birds at such ranges might be a problem, though.

It does appear that MaxxQ designed more volume for the warhead/laserhead section than I had thought. My blanket statement was too broad.

You still want to design a new missile for this, of course.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:34 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9104
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

munroburton wrote:They're going to need to go to bigger CMs than the Vipers. Possibly all the way up to old SDM sizes for at least some of their countermissiles, with all the associated mass penalties, which include fewer CM launchers, fewer CMs in the magazine spaces, slower firing rate and eating hull volume that could be assigned to more effective closer-in missile defense.
That's certainly one approach that (earth) navies have taken. Differentiate their SAMs into bigger (more expensive) longer ranged missiles and smaller (cheaper) point defense missiles.
RIM-8 Talos vs RIM-24 Tartar, or more recently, RIM-66 Standard vs RIM-162 Evolved SeaSparrow Missile or RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM).

Theoretically you could build Honorverse warships with some larger longer ranged CM tubes (or even use the broadside missile tubes to launch these larger CMs) and give up a few of your standard CM tubes in exchange. You'd have to run the numbers and see if the extended range is worth giving up the tradeoffs (larger CMs mean you can carry less of them - or if carried in main magazines mean you can carry less anti-ship missiles) - and you're probably running into limits on how many missile wedges you can sequence from broadside tubes without wedge collisions - so each larger CM fire probably displaces least one smaller CM.

But until they do something to address the stated problem with long range CM accuracy (whether or not that problem makes sense to all the posters here :D) there's no point in making bigger, even longer ranged CMs.
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:01 pm

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

--snipping--
Jonathan_S wrote:But until they do something to address the stated problem with long range CM accuracy (whether or not that problem makes sense to all the posters here :D) there's no point in making bigger, even longer ranged CMs.
One of RFC's statement about the difficulty of CM interception had to do with "battlefield smoke", that is, so much happening near in that it's nearly impossible to coordinate and see around all of the ships and missile wedges real time. To "see around the smoke" your control platforms have to be farther away; but simply saying "do that with ghost rider, etc." isn't useful because hello, if you can't get a signal to the drones, they can't get it to the CM's either.

The previous approaches have involved putting men and women in harms way to augment the close in defenses, with the smaller screening formations and LACs basically taking the shots/hits sacrificially instead of the bigger ships. I think Honor and everyone would be far happier to not sacrifice those lives.

That's where things like unmanned bits such as Mycroft, Keyhole II, the Apollo FTL control missile's AI, etc., plus the size of the Mark 23 missile body are attracting our attention. It's no harder to launch CM's outside of the battlefield space as interceptors if you can get them out there quick enough AND control what each successive CM layer is shooting at.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:21 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
Jonathan_S wrote:But until they do something to address the stated problem with long range CM accuracy (whether or not that problem makes sense to all the posters here :D) there's no point in making bigger, even longer ranged CMs.
One of RFC's statement about the difficulty of CM interception had to do with "battlefield smoke", that is, so much happening near in that it's nearly impossible to coordinate and see around all of the ships and missile wedges real time. To "see around the smoke" your control platforms have to be farther away; but simply saying "do that with ghost rider, etc." isn't useful because hello, if you can't get a signal to the drones, they can't get it to the CM's either.

The previous approaches have involved putting men and women in harms way to augment the close in defenses, with the smaller screening formations and LACs basically taking the shots/hits sacrificially instead of the bigger ships. I think Honor and everyone would be far happier to not sacrifice those lives.
The screening formations out along the threat axis are there to provide nearby sighting and counter-missile fire; if they soak up some of it, or become an initial target (blow them away first, then have an easier time blowing away the distant wall), that's an unfortunate but acceptable cost. It's not the intention in this case.

That's where things like unmanned bits such as Mycroft, Keyhole II, the Apollo FTL control missile's AI, etc., plus the size of the Mark 23 missile body are attracting our attention. It's no harder to launch CM's outside of the battlefield space as interceptors if you can get them out there quick enough AND control what each successive CM layer is shooting at.

It'd be nice to replace the vulnerable remote screen with something unmanned, when it's both vulnerable to being picked up as a target accidentally by missiles that haven't got ship-based control anymore, or as targets in their own right. But there we start hitting the limits of what role automated units are allowed in the Honorverse - whether they be automated LAC's, automated recon drones used to control distant CM's, or automated CM fire platforms.

My guess is that those screening, out-toward-the-middle anti-missile formations are going to remain largely LAC-based and largely crewed, and that they're likely to be the core of long-range (measured from the ultimate targets) missile interception. It's not too much unlike classic Honorverse sub-waller deployment, but instead of lurking way out on the fringes of the wall, it's out toward the threat but outside the direct line to it, and instead of being mostly smaller hyper-capable units, it's LAC's.

Doing that with smaller, automated systems - think like a large recon drone with CM's or a PD cluster - would be so much nicer from a preservation of life standpoint. I just doubt it's going to become a central or sufficient part of the doctrine for narrative purposes.

Recon drones out near the enemy wall used for the first view of the incoming volley, that's another thing entirely and is almost certain to be important and routine. For that matter, I could also see a role for a "recon missile", a missile-sized recon drone of sorts, with modest sensors, little or no stealth, and little endurance, used to keep a closer eye on an incoming missile strike, launched by the LAC interception force when the recon missile can more or less keep up with the remaining strike as it heads for the wall.

Anyone have any optimism about "mobile Mistletoe", a recon drone variant used to get into a SD(P)'s cluster of recently deployed missile pods and blow them up (or at least get soft mission kills) before they fire?
Top
Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:59 pm

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

--snipping--
JeffEngel wrote:Doing that with smaller, automated systems - think like a large recon drone with CM's or a PD cluster - would be so much nicer from a preservation of life standpoint. I just doubt it's going to become a central or sufficient part of the doctrine for narrative purposes.

Recon drones out near the enemy wall used for the first view of the incoming volley, that's another thing entirely and is almost certain to be important and routine. For that matter, I could also see a role for a "recon missile", a missile-sized recon drone of sorts, with modest sensors, little or no stealth, and little endurance, used to keep a closer eye on an incoming missile strike, launched by the LAC interception force when the recon missile can more or less keep up with the remaining strike as it heads for the wall.

Anyone have any optimism about "mobile Mistletoe", a recon drone variant used to get into a SD(P)'s cluster of recently deployed missile pods and blow them up (or at least get soft mission kills) before they fire?
I think that's likely SOP now, because we've been told in the past that the RMN missiles have been boom or burst (area nuke or bomb-pumped laser) for a while. Given that we're told that the recon drones are bigger and are fusion powered, making the power plant ka-boom for area coverage seems trivial. System pods aren't moving so ka-bang.

Given that Filereta was toast the moment he arrived in Manticore space ( they had a gazillion RD eyes on him from the word go), the GA likely had the capability to do preemptively kill those pods, but the surprise fire-and-forget launch of the pod based missiles got those missiles out of the nuclear envelope of the drones too quickly.

In a fleet engagement, it's not so easy because your drones are accerating and gaining velocity headed 180 degrees away from the direction of the force attacking you, so it's like they would have to circle around to get to the backside, then adjust their velocity and trajectory to station keep on your enemy's towed pods. And oh, by the way, now the enemy's wedge interference screws with your ability to get a signal through to make the RD's go kaboom in the first place.

Meanwhile, Honor's goal is to thin the attack missile waves before they reach current CM range, clearing some of the battlefield smoke (which increases her close in CM and PDLC defensive capabilities) AND preserving her smaller ships.

Which also makes sense given that a single SAG-c in space can keep on taking control of 1K waves of Mk-23 based salvos and still ruin a massive SD formation's day from far outside any non-GA fleet's ability to respond.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
Top

Return to Honorverse