RFC's take on what the Royal Torch Navy might need...

Hutch wrote:snip
The end result is the end of Manpower/Mesa as a slave-producing society (which has been accomplished as of CoG) and the eventual freedom of all slaves in Known Space (which may take a little time).

snip

I agree that as of the end of CoG that Mesa is done, but Manpower was spread around - we have textev that the breeding vats were in more than one place, so I think that the RTN is going to have a lot more work to do to totally shut down Manpower, and I suspect it will be at the job for a number of years (decades?)

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Hutch wrote:snip
The end result is the end of Manpower/Mesa as a slave-producing society (which has been accomplished as of CoG) and the eventual freedom of all slaves in Known Space (which may take a little time).

snip

I agree that as of the end of CoG that Mesa is done, but Manpower was spread around - we have textev that the breeding vats were in more than one place, so I think that the RTN is going to have a lot more work to do to totally shut down Manpower, and I suspect it will be at the job for a number of years (decades?)

I wonder if that's why RFC mentioned that the RTN might be one of the few systems that could use mini-CLAC type ships. If they find a multi-ship group related to Jessyk or Manpower, for example, dropping LACs would let them capture or take out more ships at the same time, plus each LAC crew would get alot of OJT training in ship handling/fighting, etc.

Carlucci's is building wallers for Maya so they are probably doing the same for Erewhon.
They should also be able to do CLACs if they have the designs for the CLACs and the LACs to go with them. At this point, even a "lite" version of either the Manticore or Haven CLAC would play hell with SLN forces.

Torch, not so much a need for a CLAC but very much needing modern LACs for SDF. That is not just a defence role but as part of the training for its military spacers. At the same time they are going to need building up of their ability to repair and modify ships along with the capasity for at least orbital manufacturing. Shipbuilding is probably a step too far for Torch at this point but they will need to be able to at least maintain what they do aquire and start producing spairs for everything along with bootstraping their own growth.
Haven and Erewhon are the likely sources of equipment and training since Manticore and Grayson are also having to replace thier infrastructure and manufacturing. I get the impression that Beowulf is concentrating on Manticore with some help going to Grayson. Torch needs to educate and train people for all of this exactly the way Manticore and Grayson need to replace the workforce they lost in Oyster Bay.

--quick snip--

Brigade XO wrote:Haven and Erewhon are the likely sources of equipment and training since Manticore and Grayson are also having to replace thier infrastructure and manufacturing. I get the impression that Beowulf is concentrating on Manticore with some help going to Grayson. Torch needs to educate and train people for all of this exactly the way Manticore and Grayson need to replace the workforce they lost in Oyster Bay.

Asking for feedback... my impression is that Grayson only lost the Blackbird Yard, but I've only been on these boards for a couple months now. Does Grayson still have their near-planetary yards intact? (which would likely be mostly repair / refurbishment yards, etc.)

SharkHunter wrote:--quick snip--

Brigade XO wrote:Haven and Erewhon are the likely sources of equipment and training since Manticore and Grayson are also having to replace thier infrastructure and manufacturing. I get the impression that Beowulf is concentrating on Manticore with some help going to Grayson. Torch needs to educate and train people for all of this exactly the way Manticore and Grayson need to replace the workforce they lost in Oyster Bay.

Asking for feedback... my impression is that Grayson only lost the Blackbird Yard, but I've only been on these boards for a couple months now. Does Grayson still have their near-planetary yards intact? (which would likely be mostly repair / refurbishment yards, etc.)

David has said that once the Blackbird Yards were opened, all planetary orbital construction was moved out to Blackbird. So, no, there are no orbital yards around Grayson, and no construction yards left in Yeltsin until they build new ones. It's one of the paragraphs in: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/281/1

Brigade XO wrote:Torch, not so much a need for a CLAC but very much needing modern LACs for SDF. That is not just a defence role but as part of the training for its military spacers. At the same time they are going to need building up of their ability to repair and modify ships along with the capasity for at least orbital manufacturing. Shipbuilding is probably a step too far for Torch at this point but they will need to be able to at least maintain what they do aquire and start producing spairs for everything along with bootstraping their own growth.

The system defense model is shifting to system missile pods. It may take more tech transfers, or transfers of gear not for general sale by any means, from the GA, so it's an open question if Torch is going to be able to get in on that soon. But if they are, or if they want to keep a force structure that will have that slot in readily when they do get that kind of system defense, they may want to keep going with units that can support power projection on a small scale for the war on Manpower.

That'd mean more frigates, or a shift toward destroyers and cruisers. LAC's would require a big investment in even a small CLAC for routine power projection with them, and that doesn't give them the granularity to select the appropriate amount of force for small jobs: one small CLAC and all or most of its LAC's would represent far more hammer than most or any jobs the RTN would do would require, and far too much of their personnel tied up in it.

They could still use LAC's carried by freighter for sneaky operations or for defense of other systems as needed, and they may be able to carry them along on larger warships (cruisers, pretty much) once they have them in service, on an awkward but doable basis. And they'd still be able to do some work in defense of Torch and for training.

There's just some reason to suppose that Torch won't have all the use for LAC's another system or a multistellar state might.

JeffEngel wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Torch, not so much a need for a CLAC but very much needing modern LACs for SDF. That is not just a defence role but as part of the training for its military spacers. At the same time they are going to need building up of their ability to repair and modify ships along with the capasity for at least orbital manufacturing. Shipbuilding is probably a step too far for Torch at this point but they will need to be able to at least maintain what they do aquire and start producing spairs for everything along with bootstraping their own growth.

The system defense model is shifting to system missile pods. It may take more tech transfers, or transfers of gear not for general sale by any means, from the GA, so it's an open question if Torch is going to be able to get in on that soon. But if they are, or if they want to keep a force structure that will have that slot in readily when they do get that kind of system defense, they may want to keep going with units that can support power projection on a small scale for the war on Manpower.

That'd mean more frigates, or a shift toward destroyers and cruisers. LAC's would require a big investment in even a small CLAC for routine power projection with them, and that doesn't give them the granularity to select the appropriate amount of force for small jobs: one small CLAC and all or most of its LAC's would represent far more hammer than most or any jobs the RTN would do would require, and far too much of their personnel tied up in it.

They could still use LAC's carried by freighter for sneaky operations or for defense of other systems as needed, and they may be able to carry them along on larger warships (cruisers, pretty much) once they have them in service, on an awkward but doable basis. And they'd still be able to do some work in defense of Torch and for training.

There's just some reason to suppose that Torch won't have all the use for LAC's another system or a multistellar state might.

The Armed Merchant Cruisers that Manticore built during the first Haven war have been mothballed. Torch might well be able to get them cheap, and only use the LAC portions of the ships, not the pod laying -i.e. launch the LACs and get out of the way of any fighting. Primarily for use where you may well have multiple merchant (slaver) ships to run down at one time.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:There's just some reason to suppose that Torch won't have all the use for LAC's another system or a multistellar state might.

The Armed Merchant Cruisers that Manticore built during the first Haven war have been mothballed. Torch might well be able to get them cheap, and only use the LAC portions of the ships, not the pod laying -i.e. launch the LACs and get out of the way of any fighting. Primarily for use where you may well have multiple merchant (slaver) ships to run down at one time.

The crew requirements on that seemed a bit high. But apart from that, yeah, that'd be a pleasant step up from making do with standard freighters concealing frigates inside.

Pod-laying capabilities, even if they don't get much use soon, wouldn't be a bad thing to start familiarizing crews with for a longer haul, either.

JeffEngel wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:The Armed Merchant Cruisers that Manticore built during the first Haven war have been mothballed. Torch might well be able to get them cheap, and only use the LAC portions of the ships, not the pod laying -i.e. launch the LACs and get out of the way of any fighting. Primarily for use where you may well have multiple merchant (slaver) ships to run down at one time.

The crew requirements on that seemed a bit high. But apart from that, yeah, that'd be a pleasant step up from making do with standard freighters concealing frigates inside.

Pod-laying capabilities, even if they don't get much use soon, wouldn't be a bad thing to start familiarizing crews with for a longer haul, either.

The entire Torch Navy doesn't have enough spacers to man 1 Wayfarer AMC (14 Frigates x (<120men) = 1/2 of Wayfarer's 3000 man complement.) If it has 3K personel laying around, it would be better spent manning the ex-PNiE DDs and CLs.

--snipping--

Theemile wrote:The entire Torch Navy doesn't have enough spacers to man 1 Wayfarer AMC (14 Frigates x (<120men) = 1/2 of Wayfarer's 3000 man complement.) If it has 3K personel laying around, it would be better spent manning the ex-PNiE DDs and CLs.

That's where David's "smaller CLAC" quote gets interesting, from the Pearls of Weber. All of the new-build construction includes an extremely high level of automation, a SAG-C even with marines takes < 400, each LAC crew is 10 members apiece, plus an additional maintentance crew per wing (two sets x say 20-30 maybe? the whole naval sections could be run by less than the same size crew as a single old style CA heavy cruiser like an RMN Star Knight or Mars, then use whatever remaining hull size for the marine assault contingents.

Also, given that Honor's first ship was a LAC, those LAC commanders become the first round of DD officers once they're ready, and they're battle tested and trained in the mean time.

That's as opposed to dumping two limpeted frigates from something like the Haile Sowe (sic?) which requires about 50% of the same manning, sans marines,and leaves those freighter/frigate combinations still available for independent slaver capture operations.