Is the Solarian League actually run by bureaucrats?

Actually the federal constitution hasn't worked out all that badly. It brings enough structure to allow at least some predicability to everyone. It has also been flexible enough to allow the shifting sands of change and political ebb and flow to work their way through. Some of the arguements that the framers had amongst themselves we are still having. Some of them are past tense. There have been new issues arise as the country has grown and society has changed.

Things are so different now than they were in 1789 that no one could run a country now the way they envisioned then, and yet there is a strong degree of continutiy.

We have had exactly one civil war since that time. Count, one.

Is the constitution perfect? No. But I strongly suspect that were we to try to redo the thing to fit someone's notion of perfect, we'd be leaving a whole lot of unhappy people in our wake. Best to pretty much leave the thing alone. We'll never have consensus. The arguements simply change along with the subject being discussed. I don't think anything can change that.

Don

dennis535 wrote:it is only certain actions that can be vetoed

For example, the vote to empanel a special commission to investigate and determine the basis and full extent of Beowulf’s actions (relating to refusing Admiral Tsang passage to Manticore) was nowhere close to unanimous (even ignoring that Beowulf's delegation was sure to veto it if they were allowed) -- here we go "eight thousand seven hundred and twelve in favor, two thousand nine hundred and three opposed. The motion is carried."

And even before that, the the vote on a motion of privilege (in order to raise the issue of Beowulf) didn't appear to require unanimous, or even a lack of 'no' votes. Just a sufficient number of 'yes' votes.



As to the actual veto power, here's what the text says

In Enemy Hands: Chapter 2 wrote:It might be called the Solarian League, but in actual fact Old Earth was simply first among equals, for every member world held a seat on the Executive Council . . . and each Council delegate held the right of veto.

More than Honor: Universe of Honor Harrington: Solarian League wrote:As a result, every member world of the Solarian League exercises full local autonomy. That is, the League's Executive Council, its highest governing body, has no legal authority over the local policies of its member worlds. On the "national" level, the Executive Council consists of delegates from all member worlds, and each world holds a veto right.

Mission of Honor: Chapter 1 wrote:“You do remember the Constitution gives every single member system veto power, don’t you?” Abruzzi inquired. Rajampet glared at him, and he shrugged. “If you wind up needing a formal declaration of war, don’t you think it would be a good thing if nobody out there—like, oh, Beowulf, for example—decided to exercise that power?”

War of Honor: Chapter 34 wrote:Few of those planets had been prepared to surrender their sovereignty to a potentially tyrannical central government, so the League Constitution had been carefully designed to prevent that from happening. Like the founders of the Star Kingdom, the men and women who'd drafted that Constitution had limited the funding sources for the government they were creating as the best means of ensuring that it could never grow into the monster they feared. Unfortunately, they hadn't stopped there. Instead they'd gone on to give every member system of the League effective veto power in the League legislature.

I don't know if the terminology difference between "League Assembly" and "League's Executive Council" is significant. The older books refer to the veto right residing in the later.


But in any case the references are reasonably uniform is asying each "world" has a veto power.

So it's possible that individual delegates could vote no on measures, but a veto requires a formal process were each member of a world's delegation indicates that they support a veto of the law. (On the theory that if its delegates can't even agree then that world must not really want to veto the law)

It's also possible that there is a separate Executive Council (some kind of "upper house") and measures pass the general assembly on a majority (or super-majority) basis but can then be vetoed by a world's single representative in the Executive Council. (But apparently not everything can be vetoed - they quite clear the foreign policy can be, as can declarations of war. But apparently appointing committees to investigate treason cannot)

Jonathan_S wrote:

dennis535 wrote:it is only certain actions that can be vetoed

For example, the vote to empanel a special commission to investigate and determine the basis and full extent of Beowulf’s actions (relating to refusing Admiral Tsang passage to Manticore) was nowhere close to unanimous (even ignoring that Beowulf's delegation was sure to veto it if they were allowed) -- here we go "eight thousand seven hundred and twelve in favor, two thousand nine hundred and three opposed. The motion is carried."

And even before that, the the vote on a motion of privilege (in order to raise the issue of Beowulf) didn't appear to require unanimous, or even a lack of 'no' votes. Just a sufficient number of 'yes' votes.



As to the actual veto power, here's what the text says

In Enemy Hands: Chapter 2 wrote:It might be called the Solarian League, but in actual fact Old Earth was simply first among equals, for every member world held a seat on the Executive Council . . . and each Council delegate held the right of veto.

More than Honor: Universe of Honor Harrington: Solarian League wrote:As a result, every member world of the Solarian League exercises full local autonomy. That is, the League's Executive Council, its highest governing body, has no legal authority over the local policies of its member worlds. On the "national" level, the Executive Council consists of delegates from all member worlds, and each world holds a veto right.

Mission of Honor: Chapter 1 wrote:“You do remember the Constitution gives every single member system veto power, don’t you?” Abruzzi inquired. Rajampet glared at him, and he shrugged. “If you wind up needing a formal declaration of war, don’t you think it would be a good thing if nobody out there—like, oh, Beowulf, for example—decided to exercise that power?”

War of Honor: Chapter 34 wrote:Few of those planets had been prepared to surrender their sovereignty to a potentially tyrannical central government, so the League Constitution had been carefully designed to prevent that from happening. Like the founders of the Star Kingdom, the men and women who'd drafted that Constitution had limited the funding sources for the government they were creating as the best means of ensuring that it could never grow into the monster they feared. Unfortunately, they hadn't stopped there. Instead they'd gone on to give every member system of the League effective veto power in the League legislature.

I don't know if the terminology difference between "League Assembly" and "League's Executive Council" is significant. The older books refer to the veto right residing in the later.


But in any case the references are reasonably uniform is asying each "world" has a veto power.

So it's possible that individual delegates could vote no on measures, but a veto requires a formal process were each member of a world's delegation indicates that they support a veto of the law. (On the theory that if its delegates can't even agree then that world must not really want to veto the law)

It's also possible that there is a separate Executive Council (some kind of "upper house") and measures pass the general assembly on a majority (or super-majority) basis but can then be vetoed by a world's single representative in the Executive Council. (But apparently not everything can be vetoed - they quite clear the foreign policy can be, as can declarations of war. But apparently appointing committees to investigate treason cannot)

I can think of two possibilities here. Either RFC has forgotten the rules in his own universe (unlikely, to say the least), or in fact the Mandarins are saying screw the Constitution, we are going to do what we want anyway (extremely likely), since there were obviously more than enough no votes, and even if a separate unanimous delegation vote was required to cast a veto, surely Beowulf would have cast such a veto, and probably one or two of the other systems as well. Unless we get RFC to weigh in on this topic, I think we are going to have to leave it unresolved.

---snipping---

fallsfromtrees wrote:I can think of two possibilities here. Either RFC has forgotten the rules in his own universe (unlikely, to say the least), or in fact the Mandarins are saying screw the Constitution, we are going to do what we want anyway (extremely likely), since there were obviously more than enough no votes, and even if a separate unanimous delegation vote was required to cast a veto, surely Beowulf would have cast such a veto, and probably one or two of the other systems as well. Unless we get RFC to weigh in on this topic, I think we are going to have to leave it unresolved.

I think the definitive point is that a declaration of war required a unanimous vote. Frontier Fleet simply ignored that proviso and engineered various crisis in Verge and protectorate systems to take over anyway, and since it profited the bureaucrats in charge, no one argued with business as usual.

SharkHunter wrote:---snipping---

fallsfromtrees wrote:I can think of two possibilities here. Either RFC has forgotten the rules in his own universe (unlikely, to say the least), or in fact the Mandarins are saying screw the Constitution, we are going to do what we want anyway (extremely likely), since there were obviously more than enough no votes, and even if a separate unanimous delegation vote was required to cast a veto, surely Beowulf would have cast such a veto, and probably one or two of the other systems as well. Unless we get RFC to weigh in on this topic, I think we are going to have to leave it unresolved.

I think the definitive point is that a declaration of war required a unanimous vote. Frontier Fleet simply ignored that proviso and engineered various crisis in Verge and protectorate systems to take over anyway, and since it profited the bureaucrats in charge, no one argued with business as usual.

There has to ba bit more to it than that. The veto is what renders the system unworkable and vetoing a declaration of war wouldn't accomplish that.

Don

n7axw wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:I think the definitive point is that a declaration of war required a unanimous vote. Frontier Fleet simply ignored that proviso and engineered various crisis in Verge and protectorate systems to take over anyway, and since it profited the bureaucrats in charge, no one argued with business as usual.

There has to ba bit more to it than that. The veto is what renders the system unworkable and vetoing a declaration of war wouldn't accomplish that.

Don

True, we just don't have a firm definition of what is (and isn't) subject to veto.

We know that the veto, or threat of it, is used primarily against foreign policy items - we're told that's why the league basically doesn't have foreign policy. (Except for the Eredani Edict - which as a constitutional amendment bypassed the normal channels)
We also know that it can be applied to some internal laws/policy/whatever - because we're told it usually isn't for a couple reasons (threat of it causes middle of the road options to be put forth; and systems have ways, outside of the Assembly, of retaliating for frivolous use of the veto)

And finally we can see that there are some actions / motions that pretty clearly aren't subject to veto (formation of the committee to investigate Beowulf's possible treason)


But between the super broad, our one specific veto-able example (dec of war), and our one counter example only RFC (and maybe parts of BuNine) know precisely where the "veto-able" line is drawn.

Also, paper is obsolete (except for the most formal uses).

Everything is done on the computers.

HTM

Torlek wrote:The reasons we do not see much paper pushing done by SL bureaucrats are: 1. There are not that many POV characters within the SL. 2. The actual responsibilities of the SL are very limited. The chances that you have to actually deal with the SL if you live on a member planet are small. (That might be different in the verge. But we saw even less of the life there.)

For me they are bureaucrats, because their most important skill appears to be office politics. What more do you want.

Jonathan_S wrote:True, we just don't have a firm definition of what is (and isn't) subject to veto.

We know that the veto, or threat of it, is used primarily against foreign policy items - we're told that's why the league basically doesn't have foreign policy. (Except for the Eredani Edict - which as a constitutional amendment bypassed the normal channels)
We also know that it can be applied to some internal laws/policy/whatever - because we're told it usually isn't for a couple reasons (threat of it causes middle of the road options to be put forth; and systems have ways, outside of the Assembly, of retaliating for frivolous use of the veto)

And finally we can see that there are some actions / motions that pretty clearly aren't subject to veto (formation of the committee to investigate Beowulf's possible treason)


But between the super broad, our one specific veto-able example (dec of war), and our one counter example only RFC (and maybe parts of BuNine) know precisely where the "veto-able" line is drawn.

I think it's for declarations of war, foreign policy directives from the Assembly, and legislation, while simple majorities serve for procedural dickering, setting up committees, and mere statements. Roughly - if it's got genuine weight, the veto can apply, and the veto simply is not used in some of those cases because they manage to work out deals that those opposed to the motion otherwise can tolerate. (If often because they are threatened with action outside the Assembly in retaliation.)

There's only so far that kind of maneuvering to prevent a veto can go though - especially with so very many planets wielding one. People following US politics at least can appreciate how hard it is to get 50%+1 or 60% majorities to get behind things in the US Senate and/or House of Representatives. Now picture a House of Representatives in which any measure more important than a mere censure, a proclamation, or formation of a toothless subcommittee, required unanimity. Yes, you could go a long way with complicated, something-for-everyone bills (although you run the risk of ruining it for someone else with every provision added), and threats that one state will mess around with the business or citizens of another state if they exercise that veto. But that long way is still going to end up short of a working government, particularly when you multiply the states (systems) represented by about 40, and when the entities represented are practically autarkic star systems, that can pretty nearly take or leave the rest of the universe in a pinch.

I greatly resisted posting this, but alas, low intestinal fortitude.

The Solarian League reminds me more of something "glamorized" in Alvin Toffler's Furure Shock. It exhibits most of its main characteristics and almost all of its downsides.

An Adhocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhocracy

cthia wrote:I greatly resisted posting this, but alas, low intestinal fortitude.

The Solarian League reminds me more of something "glamorized" in Alvin Toffler's Furure Shock. It exhibits most of its main characteristics and almost all of its downsides.

An Adhocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhocracy

Not sure I agree, my best assessment of the SL is something like the how court cases and legislation based on the Commerce Clause in the U.S. constitution has extended the reach of the federal government WAY beyond what the designer's originally intended. The analogy of the Mandarin's sitting on top of the "connections between the star systems" used in an earlier post fits my thoughts about "misusing the Commerce Clause to do the dirty work" of federalizing the money stream(s).

For example, if at any point post diaspora/Warshaski sail the "trans-stellars" are deemed as "too big to fail", like banks were in this last economic go round, doesn't that mean that from that point forward in the Honorverse, Pandora's box was open for business? Thoughts?