The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Asgard is on the far side of Manticore from the League. At this point the only wormholes we know about going there come from Manticore and the IAM. You probably can still take an SL flagged ship through the wormholes connected between Asgard and Mattapan, Midgard and the IAE but anything else is going to be through hyperspace. Not clear if the IAM will allow a SL flagged ship in or told Asguard that they will not let any such ship proceed.
If some SL flagges ship wants to take the hyper trip to the area at Asgard and beyond, they can so so. They are certainly going to have to take it back to the SL controlled areas.

Erewhon makes a dandy trans-shipment point for cargos from SL flagged to others that can use the Manticore network. It provides a conduit for goods and materials both ways though Manticore isn't producing anything just now. However, Haven can sell all sorts of things, they can now use the Manticore network just fine. Manticore is attempting to rehabilitate the relationship with Erewhon so letting them do more-or-less what they will with what they allow isn't a problem. Manticore controles the Hennessy terminus so that one is closed to the SL. Erwhon (as both SEM and RH know) is already supporting the Maya enterprise and that self interest is going to have them keeping OFS/SL at arms length in the most polite and practical manner.

n7axw wrote:I can understand the logic behind leaving the Visigoth wormhole alone. But and I don't agree with it. There is no textev to support it; indeed what textev we do have implies the contrary.

Unless persuaded by textev to the contrary, my own assumption will be that Manticore controls both sides of that wormhole...

for what that's worth... which is just barely short of nothing.

Don

I'm going to assume you mean that, as of the end of CoG, Manticore controls both sides of the Visigoth wormhole (technically, it should be 3 sides, not two). Because we know for a fact that Manticore did not control at least one side of that wormhole (the Mesan side) before the end of CoG (and we don't actually have textev that they do at the end).

Where is the quote saying Visgoth is a Beowulf daughter colony? Not from my recollection is that true. Of course my eyes glazed over when re-reading the section of the MALIGN members.

Relax wrote:Where is the quote saying Visgoth is a Beowulf daughter colony? Not from my recollection is that true. Of course my eyes glazed over when re-reading the section of the MALIGN members.

I'd like to see that quote as well. As far as I can remember, Beowulf has been mentioned in text as having daughter colonies (the plural form of the word colony has always been used, so we know there are at least two), but the names, locations and number of those colonies is something that neither David nor any other author writing in the Honorverse has mentioned in a book, story, or Pearl of Weber (or interview, of all the ones that I have been able to read, listen to, or watch).

SWM wrote:I'm going to assume you mean that, as of the end of CoG, Manticore controls both sides of the Visigoth wormhole (technically, it should be 3 sides, not two). Because we know for a fact that Manticore did not control at least one side of that wormhole (the Mesan side) before the end of CoG (and we don't actually have textev that they do at the end).

I think our surmise is probably that taking all sides of the Visigoth junction is next, because it says that 10th Fleet came over the hyper limit into Mesa, not from a junction which makes more battle sense -- collisions because you don't know the "inbound and outbound lanes", any kind of junction fortifications etc.

I'd then assume that the Manticoran techs would fairly quickly get the "lane data" to proceed to Visigoth and take the terminus from that side. I've also decided that they wouldn't wait for the Beowulf referendum either, but announce that since taking Mesa, they can't afford to be surprised by a sudden transit of any non-GA warships into Mesan space.

SWM wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Laccoon I and II was the seizure (I was temporary, II permanently atm) of -all- wormhole termini/unctions regardless of who owned them. Visigoth is definitely close enough to the SEM to be on the target list, since the main purpose of Laccoon II is to hurt the SL economically. Letting some wormholes remain unseized in the SL defeats that purpose

Nit: Lacoon I did not involve seizing any wormholes. Lacoon II did involve seizing control of wormholes, but there is no evidence that the plan is or was to hold them permanently.

Although Lacoon I did include, or at least the orders that went out with its activation included, letting station commands do whatever they felt was required to safely withdraw the recalled Manticoran merchantmen.

Wasn't there at least one armed confrontation we saw before a system let the Manticoran ships use its terminus to evacuate?
That system might have viewed those RMN warships sitting on the terminus as a temporary seizure - even though they didn't interfere with other traffic, just pointedly ensured that Manticoran traffic wasn't blocked or impounded.

Relax wrote:Where is the quote saying Visgoth is a Beowulf daughter colony? Not from my recollection is that true. Of course my eyes glazed over when re-reading the section of the MALIGN members.

There is no evidence that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf.

I searched the text for all references to Visigoth. There is no text evidence associating Visigoth with Beowulf other than proximity (60 light-years) and a shared condemnation of genetic slavery.

There are no references to Visigoth in the Pearls or in the FAQ of this forum.

I searched for the keywords Visigoth, Beowulf, and daughter in the forums. I also searched for the keywords Visigoth, Beowulf, and colony. There are numerous statements that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf, but no citations to evidence. None of the statements come from Runsforcelery or from anyone with inside knowledge. I also find a post (from myself) back in 2011 noting that there had been previous speculation before on the forum that Visigoth was a daughter of Beowulf but that there was no text evidence. The original posts where that speculation occurred disappeared from the forums in one of the data losses we have occasionally had.

The idea that Visigoth is a daughter colony of Beowulf is pure speculation which has inadvertently become accepted as fact on the forum. This misconception has been cropping up for about five years now (the first mention of Visigoth is in Storm from the Shadows, in 2009).

[edit]I should admit that I myself have occasionally forgotten that this is pure speculation rather than fact. [/edit]

Jonathan_S wrote:

SWM wrote:Nit: Lacoon I did not involve seizing any wormholes. Lacoon II did involve seizing control of wormholes, but there is no evidence that the plan is or was to hold them permanently.

Although Lacoon I did include, or at least the orders that went out with its activation included, letting station commands do whatever they felt was required to safely withdraw the recalled Manticoran merchantmen.

Wasn't there at least one armed confrontation we saw before a system let the Manticoran ships use its terminus to evacuate?
That system might have viewed those RMN warships sitting on the terminus as a temporary seizure - even though they didn't interfere with other traffic, just pointedly ensured that Manticoran traffic wasn't blocked or impounded.

Correct. Good point.

SharkHunter wrote:

SWM wrote:I'm going to assume you mean that, as of the end of CoG, Manticore controls both sides of the Visigoth wormhole (technically, it should be 3 sides, not two). Because we know for a fact that Manticore did not control at least one side of that wormhole (the Mesan side) before the end of CoG (and we don't actually have textev that they do at the end).

I think our surmise is probably that taking all sides of the Visigoth junction is next, because it says that 10th Fleet came over the hyper limit into Mesa, not from a junction which makes more battle sense -- collisions because you don't know the "inbound and outbound lanes", any kind of junction fortifications etc.

You might want to look at a map. 10th fleet is coming from Meyers, which is on the opposite side of Mesa from the Core, which is where Visigoth is located. I seriously doubt that Admiral Henke would have taken several wormhole transits through hyper-bridges we don't know about so she could assault a defended hyper terminus through the wormhole.

SharkHunter wrote:I'd then assume that the Manticoran techs would fairly quickly get the "lane data" to proceed to Visigoth and take the terminus from that side. I've also decided that they wouldn't wait for the Beowulf referendum either, but announce that since taking Mesa, they can't afford to be surprised by a sudden transit of any non-GA warships into Mesan space.

This has been discussed numerous times. It's a good way to lose your task force.

I like the advice a character in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkoskegen books had about an officer who suggested an assault through a defended wormhole. "Shoot the officer."

JohnRoth wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:I'd then assume that the Manticoran techs would fairly quickly get the "lane data" to proceed to Visigoth and take the terminus from that side. I've also decided that they wouldn't wait for the Beowulf referendum either, but announce that since taking Mesa, they can't afford to be surprised by a sudden transit of any non-GA warships into Mesan space.

This has been discussed numerous times. It's a good way to lose your task force.

I like the advice a character in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkoskegen books had about an officer who suggested an assault through a defended wormhole. "Shoot the officer."

Agreement in general, but we're not sure if the Visigoth wormhole is defended on their end. If so, obviously it's a different proposition, but otherwise it would be like the seizures in aRT and Shadow of Freedom, aka by surprise and armed /back under impeller before the junction folks have a time to go Oh S---! I just don't see them going "Beowulf to Visigoth" to seize it.