Best use of the Agamemnons (BC(P))--and other Ships

Based on an exchange with munroburton on another thread, the GA is going to be stretched for ships against the SL and the MAlignment, and will have to get maximum use out of all their units.

The Agamemnons' interest me since there should be about 80+ (based on House of Steel - losses at the BoM and elsewhere). I thought that they should be used for raiding SL systems, but munroburton counterpointed that they would be more useful as system-protection. And I, upon reflection, decided he was right.

Put a division in each of the Talbott Sector systems (total 16 systems = 32 ships) and a full squadron at Lynx (which to me seems to be most vunerable to attack of any of the SKM worlds...it's .5-1 days distant from the Wormhole (4 LY) and we've heard nothing about it's defenses in any of the books (that I can recall-YMMV). Eight Aggies would probably be a boost.

The other 40 or so could be deployed in Silesia, but one per system would probably be adequate, given the distance that they are from the SL and that Sarnow probably has powerful (but centralized) forces available.

And what about other ships, like the Sag-A's and B's? Or the poor, neglected Avalon-class light cruisers? Where best to deploy the (for now) stagant number of ships the SEM has to the best effects?

Just curious about what others' are thinking. Me, I just like moving ships around...

Hutch wrote:Based on an exchange with munroburton on another thread, the GA is going to be stretched for ships against the SL and the MAlignment, and will have to get maximum use out of all their units.

The Agamemnons' interest me since there should be about 80+ (based on House of Steel - losses at the BoM and elsewhere). I thought that they should be used for raiding SL systems, but munroburton counterpointed that they would be more useful as system-protection. And I, upon reflection, decided he was right.

Put a division in each of the Talbott Sector systems (total 16 systems = 32 ships) and a full squadron at Lynx (which to me seems to be most vunerable to attack of any of the SKM worlds...it's .5-1 days distant from the Wormhole (4 LY) and we've heard nothing about it's defenses in any of the books (that I can recall-YMMV). Eight Aggies would probably be a boost.

The other 40 or so could be deployed in Silesia, but one per system would probably be adequate, given the distance that they are from the SL and that Sarnow probably has powerful (but centralized) forces available.

And what about other ships, like the Sag-A's and B's? Or the poor, neglected Avalon-class light cruisers? Where best to deploy the (for now) stagant number of ships the SEM has to the best effects?

Just curious about what others' are thinking. Me, I just like moving ships around...

I figure LAC's are better for permanent or semi-permanent system defense than a BC(P), when they are available in sufficient numbers and being able to put them into the system and pull them out without tying up a CLAC isn't a fierce issue.

But where redeployment in a hurry is more of an issue, the BC(P) would be an excellent replacement/stand-in. It could also shine punching out Frontier Fleet cruiser groups in almost arbitrarily large numbers; stray Battle Fleet SD divisions; or moderately defended systems, when that occasion turns up. One of the more frequent and worrisome places you may find those FF formations is keeping a wormhole terminus, should they retake any from the RMN.

A fast, independent unit like any BC on system defense duty simply makes me want to cry.

Units without the crew-saving automation ought to be kept near yards where they can transfer crews to newer units as they become available (yeah, may be awhile - still), or off on cruising operations where the spare crew will be especially handy. Units with the reduced crews but not the DDM's could pretty much be used for any less-than-maximum intensity theater - they'll still outclass Solarian, pirate, or small power forces, just without the huge margin that main combat forces need.

I think the BC(P)s would be very useful in either role; sending them to the back areas was more to do with keeping the concept out of SLN hands, especially FF hands.

I suppose the difference is academic - by the time they discover that concept, the SLN will no longer be in a position to learn from encounters with BC(P)s, assuming it even has that time now.

Going by the last paragraph of the Agamemnon class's entry in House of Steel, killing ships from the old design paradigm is its best function. System defense is better left to Mycroft/Moriarty and LACs.

I'd certainly prefer Agamemnons over Reliants, if Nikes or SD(P)s weren't available.

Agamemnon is an egg shell with sledgehammer against pod design, but against normal target it's nightmare of Captain. So why don't use them in squadron strength groups to raid enemy systems and yards, if squadrons of Saganami-C is enough to destroy and capture remnants of big SLN fleet, Agamemnon should be fine even if it run into huge group of SLN ships. Using it in Silesia would be huge waste of resources and overkill, using it in Talbott would be good, but it would be better to use them as mobile defence.

Hutch wrote:Based on an exchange with munroburton on another thread, the GA is going to be stretched for ships against the SL and the MAlignment, and will have to get maximum use out of all their units.

The Agamemnons' interest me since there should be about 80+ (based on House of Steel - losses at the BoM and elsewhere). I thought that they should be used for raiding SL systems, but munroburton counterpointed that they would be more useful as system-protection. And I, upon reflection, decided he was right.

Put a division in each of the Talbott Sector systems (total 16 systems = 32 ships) and a full squadron at Lynx (which to me seems to be most vunerable to attack of any of the SKM worlds...it's .5-1 days distant from the Wormhole (4 LY) and we've heard nothing about it's defenses in any of the books (that I can recall-YMMV). Eight Aggies would probably be a boost.

The other 40 or so could be deployed in Silesia, but one per system would probably be adequate, given the distance that they are from the SL and that Sarnow probably has powerful (but centralized) forces available.

And what about other ships, like the Sag-A's and B's? Or the poor, neglected Avalon-class light cruisers? Where best to deploy the (for now) stagant number of ships the SEM has to the best effects?

Just curious about what others' are thinking. Me, I just like moving ships around...

The Sag-A, and other single drive missile ships, you probably want to keep out of situations where they'd be likely to face cataphract equipped enemies unsupported. (Or at least caraphract equipped enemies of similar weight. A late flight Reliant BC probably doesn't have much to fear from a SLN CA who's internally launched cataphract only carry DD weight warheads)

Not sure it necessarily makes sense for the BC(P)s to stay on the defensive. Yes they can shoot themselves out of ammo very quickly, but the ammo they do carry is damned destructive and a single BC(P) should be capable of taking out at least an entire squadron of legacy BCs before running short of pods. It can't sustain combat for as long as a Sag-C, but it's still got more active defenses and the Keyhole I doesn't hurt (until the laser heads start hitting you), plus while it's ammo lasts, can deal much bigger blows. It's weaker defensively than a BC(L), but despite the compromises needed to squeeze pods and keyholes in it's a tougher defensive target than the Sag-C. Any nobody is saying those need to stay home so they don't get banged up.
Actually you could make an argument that they're a flawed design much like the original I-class RN BCs. Fast enough and heavily armed enough to chase down any older cruiser and crush it, but the compromises needed to get them make them very vulnerable to their own firepower. So dangerous to use against other modern BC designs, but quick death to anything older or smaller (which happily described the entire current SL fleet)


Anyway, the ERM/LERM ships (Sag-B, Wolfhound, Avalon) should be capable of taking on cataphract equipped ships up to the same weight class, and possible a weight class above them (given how much more effective their missile defense should be). Yes the cataphracts can be launched with ballistic segments to outrange the ERM/LERM missiles. But the SLN accuracy at those extended ranges shouldn't be anything to write home about - the RMN units should easily (baring a golden BB) be able to use their superior acceleration to close to effective ERM/LERM range and slug it out.

When Haven starts redeployment of their forces we should find at least few hundred of SD and BC, Haven designs don't have any MDM but we could upgrade their missiles, and even without that upgrade they should be quite capable of destroying anything which could be thrown at them by SLN.
What about creating entire fleet out of battle cruisers and base them around Sigma Draconis terminus, from there they could be send as raiding force deep into league core, maybe even to Earth. We should have something like 60-80 Agamemnons, 30 Nikes, 60 Reliant and maybe up to 200 of Haven designs. Attach to that fleet few Convingtons or even Aviary class CLAC and we have very nasty and fast raiding force, if we ad to that something like 100 Saganami-C cruisers, I don't think that Sarnow will need them to clean that mess in Silesia. We could get enough time to start new constructions in Manticore and refit Bolthole to Manticoran standards.
Other good idea is to use our SDs in raids against heavily defended targets, for at least a year we won't see anything heavier than battle cruiser in big quantities, so we could use them to cripple Navy yards.

I think we're forgetting that Manticore isn't trying to put themselves in the position of having to reach down the Leagues throat and rip out it's innards, in fact that's the one losing strategy. They's still got a ship limitation problem because there are still alot of star systems needing defending and not enough ships to get the job done.

Given that "shortly" big chunks of Frontier Fleet are planning to go a-hunting, and we've got quite a few of the Sag-C's out there grabbing and holding termini, how do you propose defending Casca, Minette, Candor, Zanzibar, Hancock, Grendelsbane, Meyers, Talbott's systems, the dozens of systems in the old Silesian Confederacy and.... Granted, LACs get you a long way, but there's even a limit on how many of those the alliance can build "right now", and LACs sans missiles are worthless. Since don't even have a gazillion system defense missiles out there.. and we can't make more missiles for a while. Dang there goes the bullet supply problem again...

So my thought is that most of the surviving Agammenons are going to be like the battleships of the former PN, except not for rebellion suppression, but for decently portable nodal defensive positions, at least until a substantial missile supply starts coming on line.

SharkHunter wrote:I think we're forgetting that Manticore isn't trying to put themselves in the position of having to reach down the Leagues throat and rip out it's innards, in fact that's the one losing strategy. They's still got a ship limitation problem because there are still alot of star systems needing defending and not enough ships to get the job done.

Given that "shortly" big chunks of Frontier Fleet are planning to go a-hunting, and we've got quite a few of the Sag-C's out there grabbing and holding termini, how do you propose defending Casca, Minette, Candor, Zanzibar, Hancock, Grendelsbane, Meyers, Talbott's systems, the dozens of systems in the old Silesian Confederacy and.... Granted, LACs get you a long way, but there's even a limit on how many of those the alliance can build "right now", and LACs sans missiles are worthless. Since don't even have a gazillion system defense missiles out there.. and we can't make more missiles for a while. Dang there goes the bullet supply problem again...

So my thought is that most of the surviving Agammenons are going to be like the battleships of the former PN, except not for rebellion suppression, but for decently portable nodal defensive positions, at least until a substantial missile supply starts coming on line.

Well a those systems that were at risk of raids during the second war would have pre-Oyster Bay system defenses in place - lots of pods both near the planetary orbit and out by the hyperlimit; backed by LAC bases. (See the Zanzibar defenses) Though Zanzibar itself may not have had them fully rebuilt in the interval between getting smashed (again) and OB. (Though those members of the earlier Manticoran alliance, against Haven, are probably not included in the current alliance against the League, so as neutrals they shouldn't have a high risk of getting raided)

Any of those 2nd war defenses are more than capable of eating entire Battle Fleet formations for lunch, much less the kind of FF raiders we might expect to see.


Silesia and the Talbott Cluster will have had less time to deploy system defenses, but Silesia in particular should have had some installed during the 2nd war - to discourage any further RHN probes after one of their war opening strikes was out beyond Silesia at Marsh.

Talbott's systems may not have gotten their defenses installed before OB took out the missile factories. But that's relatively few systems to protect. Yes BC(P)s may be part of the defense there, but they're hardly the only answer. Manticore could look into thinning out the defenses around some of it's now neutral former allies, relocating those pods to Talbott. Or they could buy a "turnkey" Moriarty systems and pods from Haven for installation there - more than good enough to see off any League formations.

The more interesting situation will be places like Meyers where due to a treaty they now have some interest in protecting it, but it's not an integral part of Manticore, nor is it a long trusted ally. So you probably don't want to leave system defense pods there - too much risk of them changing sides again, or even someone slipping the right person a big enough bribe to look the other way as a pod or two go "missing" for sale to a League defense contractor to attempt reverse engineering on.

SharkHunter wrote:I think we're forgetting that Manticore isn't trying to put themselves in the position of having to reach down the Leagues throat and rip out it's innards, in fact that's the one losing strategy. They's still got a ship limitation problem because there are still alot of star systems needing defending and not enough ships to get the job done.

Given that "shortly" big chunks of Frontier Fleet are planning to go a-hunting, and we've got quite a few of the Sag-C's out there grabbing and holding termini, how do you propose defending Casca, Minette, Candor, Zanzibar, Hancock, Grendelsbane, Meyers, Talbott's systems, the dozens of systems in the old Silesian Confederacy and.... Granted, LACs get you a long way, but there's even a limit on how many of those the alliance can build "right now", and LACs sans missiles are worthless. Since don't even have a gazillion system defense missiles out there.. and we can't make more missiles for a while. Dang there goes the bullet supply problem again...

So my thought is that most of the surviving Agammenons are going to be like the battleships of the former PN, except not for rebellion suppression, but for decently portable nodal defensive positions, at least until a substantial missile supply starts coming on line.

That argument has come up before, and I've argued against it. In my opinion, it is unlikely that those small star nations in the former Manticoran Alliance are part of the Grand Alliance.

Those star nations had very good reasons to be part of the Manticoran Alliance. They were clear and imminent targets of Haven. In fact, if they hadn't joined the Manticoran Alliance, they would already have been conquered by Haven by the time the first war started. At least some of them also had something to give to the Alliance--forward bases. There were also a few ships, but for the most part their real contributions to the war effort were small, other than the forward bases they provided.

In the current war with the Solarian League, those small systems have no direct stake. If they declare themselves neutral, the Solarian League has no reason to attack them. The League might attack Manticoran trade to those systems, but the systems and their own ships should be safe. Also, those nations have almost nothing to contribute to the war against the League. They are not forward bases; they are well behind the lines. They have few warships, essentially nothing compared to Grayson, Haven, and Manticore. They have no shipyards capable of building ships of the wall (except Talbot, but Talbot left the Manticoran Alliance before the Second War). In fact, as you suggest, they are actually liabilities if they join the Grand Alliance. The bigger members of the Alliance would have to provide defenses for the small members, and the small members would contribute nothing substantial in return.

So, I am fairly confident that the small members of the Manticoran Alliance, with the approval of Manticore, quietly declared their neutrality.

So, I am fairly confident that the small members of the Manticoran Alliance, with the approval of Manticore, quietly declared their neutrality.

Astrographically, I agree, but FF strategy wise I'm thinking, less so on neutrality. They've gone from "food for the PRN" bear to "weak systems with an amount of Haven Sector tech" that the MA and SLN / Yildun, etc. would desperately like to get their hands on.

So unless you are proposing that Manticore strip those systems of any current tech, which Manticore would never demand anyway, now what? If I were the Caliphate, for example, I'd be asking for whatever big mobile pod-launching ship that the GA will let me keep on station, at least until the system missile defense supply is online again.