The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

n7axw wrote:...But one basically conquers one's enemy by making him your friend. That is what's really at the heart of the Harrington doctrine. ...

Nope, the quote attributed to A. Lincoln is "I destroy my enemy when I make him my friend."

"You're not the only one who's been guilty of that, Your Majesty," Sir Thomas Caparelli said. "Over at Admiralty House, the Strategy Board has been aware for quite some time of the need to launch all-out operations against the League in the event of open hostilities. But we'd never been able to take our planning beyond the point of somehow beating the League to its knees, taking out its military infrastructure, and then committing the Star Empire to a multigeneration occupation policy. There's no way we could possibly hope to garrison or physically occupy every system of the League, or even just the more important industrial nodes. But what we could do is to picket the major systems. To require the League to renounce a large, modern navy after defeating its existing navy militarily, and then to post observers in all of the systems where a navy like that could be rebuilt in order to keep an eye on the shipyards and call in our own heavy units at the first sign of treaty violations in the form of new warship construction.

"But the problem with that kind of strategy is that it virtually assures that at some point someone in the League is going to emerge with a revanchist policy and the muscle to back it up. They're going to figure out a way to do a Thomas Theisman on us, and they're going to be able to build a fleet big enough to at least force us to pull our pickets out of the occupied systems to deal with it. At which point other systems that won't like us very much will join the fray and then, as Hamish so succinctly put it, we're toast.

"But if Honor is right—and, actually, I think there's a very good chance she is—about the probability of the League's being much more fragile than anyone is accustomed to believing, then there's another option. Her option. Instead of occupying the League for generations, we accept that it's already moribund, break it up, and make its successors our allies and trade partners, not our enemies."

" 'I destroy my enemy when I make him my friend,' " White Haven quoted softly.

"What?" His brother blinked at him, and the earl smiled.

"A quote from an Old Earth politician Honor's gotten me interested in, Willie. I think it has to do with her views on genetic slavery."

"What politician?" Grantville still looked puzzled.

"A president of the ancient United States of America named Abraham Lincoln said that," White Haven said. "And if I'm remembering correctly, he also said 'If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend.' " He smiled again, this time at his wife, much more broadly. "I can see I haven't read him as carefully as Honor has, but you ought to take a look at him, too, now that I think about it. He was in a pretty sticky military situation himself."

n7axw wrote:
There is an obvious military component to this. But one basically conquers one's enemy by making him your friend. That is what's really at the heart of the Harrington doctrine.

Don

Weird Harold pretty much got it. The SEM, heck, the entire GA, cannot conquer the SL, it's too big, but they can break it up and try to make friends, or at least, not enemies of the larger parts that remain. That means limited military action against the SL remnants unless those remnants are actively hostile to the SEM. Because open and active military action against all remnants above a certain size, whether hostile or not to the SEM (I believe that the GA isn't expected to be a permanent organization because sooner than later there will be a noticeable difference of opinion between the SEM and the RH, then what happens to the GA?) would anger most of the SL systems and give rise to the problem that Sir Thomas Caparelli outlined. So the SEM is in a very sticky quandary with limited options. Too little military action, and they risk letting something bad happen, too much and they guarantee it happening.

Hi Zakharra,

Not quite right.

Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

The alliance numbers are better than Lord Simper cites; the GA with the IAN have over 900 SDP's before the RHN commissions the 400 being completed in Haven and 2-3 nearby daughter colonies this fall and winter, while the number of large cruisers already exceeds 600 that can carry worthwhile numbers of pods [ie 900-1000 CA's, BC's, BCP's, BCL's etc] whether you're using the very outdated Fleet strength Chart or the similarly outdated HoS data on the RMN and GSN cruisers etc.

Given the quarter of the SL that supported Beowulf, given population weighting, the number of actual sympathetic systems is far greater than that, probably closer to a third or ~595.

So finding friends shouldn't be that hard for the GA, NTM providing advance bases to support extended operations in the SL, given many 2nd Haven war deep raids would easily reach to the heart of the SL which is only ~200 LY thick.

Again 2/3 of SL members have only LAC's, so there are lots of opportunities to provide security to those who seek alliance with the GA in some way.

Even a pair of old GA and IAN and soon BSDF SD's and DN's [possibly with alpha nodes removed] with the ships only partially manned by the GA etc, as the locals train up would provide excellent coverage if the client demands some capital ships beyond a BC, of which the GA has around 950 after the 48 lost at First Manticore if they haven't been scrapped etc; for 475 pairs or perhaps more likely singletons, without mentioning the 118 BF SD's [and the 71 damaged], for up to 1104 SD's and DN's [before future captures are added], or almost 2/3 of the non-old league SL members; not a bad ratio of potential customers to available assets over the next year or two.

IE, Lord Simper's estimate was also too long.

Of course then it becomes having you and your neighbors police your own neighborhood, vastly easing the GA resources required, NTM its no longer the GA in fact conquering or controlling the ex-SL, but the ex-SL members themselves which is the GA's goal in the first place.

Of course, then there's the question of providing who with the oldest SDP's in the years to come, though the GA might keep that card under wraps for awhile, though having such powerful ships crewed by several systems might be preferred by some stellar neighborhoods.

L

Zakharra wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:The key to attacking a large area with a small very good force is to keep them together and don't let them know you are coming.

The way it works is they only know you are coming if a ship goes there and says you are coming.

You take your fleet forces and you visit each place leaving behind a picket of LAC and small cruisers. You kill who you have to kill, you take the surrender of some places, etc....

It takes very few superior ships to take over and control a vast area. In medieval times people only knew about an attack after someone who saw it reported it to them. The conquerors would ride into a town or city and sack it or accept its surrender. They didn't have vast armies under their command usually just one or two.

The Honorverse can work the same way.

As for a diplomatic ship, a Nike with a small escort can dispatch pretty much anything a single system can put in its way. For larger concentrations half a dozen SD(P) can handle pretty much anything else, or a larger force can come in and wipe them out.

Honor and Mike operating the two fleets can conquer the SL in a year or two. Lester and Truman can handle diplomatic operations. Everyone else can hold the fort and handle escort duties.

3-600 SD(P) and another 3-600 BCL and Cruisers can mop up the SL in a couple three years.

Conquer the SL? Not a chance in hell. Destroy it, yes, but conquer? No way. The SL is simply to big. To conquer something, you need to be able to control it and that means boots on the ground. Having a fleet that can pop in and out of areas to blast things apart isn't conquering anything. It's raiding. Remember that the strategy of the SEM isn't to conquer the SL, because it admits in the books and RFC himself has said (I believe) that the SEM, or the GA literally cannot conquer the SL because it is to bloody big. The entire GA would be stretched too thin militarily trying to conquer the SL, and in the process they would be guaranteeing that there would be a successor state to the SL that would rise up with the full intention of wiping out the GA.

lyonheart wrote:Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

You need to recalculate: The Anderman Empire is NOT part of the Grand Alliance. They were explicitly excluded so there would be someone not involved against the SLN to pursue the MAlign.

Weird Harold wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

You need to recalculate: The Anderman Empire is NOT part of the Grand Alliance. They were explicitly excluded so there would be someone not involved against the SLN to pursue the MAlign.

And the Andermani aren't exactly eager to take on the Solarian League in a war they can avoid and haven't got a prospect of gaining territory in. That's why you've got idealistic, well-armed friends.

JeffEngel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:You need to recalculate: The Anderman Empire is NOT part of the Grand Alliance. They were explicitly excluded so there would be someone not involved against the SLN to pursue the MAlign.

And the Andermani aren't exactly eager to take on the Solarian League in a war they can avoid and haven't got a prospect of gaining territory in. That's why you've got idealistic, well-armed friends.

I don't recall there being textev to that aspect of the AE being excluded from the GA. Targeting the MAlign is in textev.

No, they didn't want to go to war with the SL.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Zakharra,

Not quite right.

Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

The alliance numbers are better than Lord Simper cites; the GA with the IAN have over 900 SDP's before the RHN commissions the 400 being completed in Haven and 2-3 nearby daughter colonies this fall and winter, while the number of large cruisers already exceeds 600 that can carry worthwhile numbers of pods [ie 900-1000 CA's, BC's, BCP's, BCL's etc] whether you're using the very outdated Fleet strength Chart or the similarly outdated HoS data on the RMN and GSN cruisers etc.

Given the quarter of the SL that supported Beowulf, given population weighting, the number of actual sympathetic systems is far greater than that, probably closer to a third or ~595.

So finding friends shouldn't be that hard for the GA, NTM providing advance bases to support extended operations in the SL, given many 2nd Haven war deep raids would easily reach to the heart of the SL which is only ~200 LY thick.

Again 2/3 of SL members have only LAC's, so there are lots of opportunities to provide security to those who seek alliance with the GA in some way.

Even a pair of old GA and IAN and soon BSDF SD's and DN's [possibly with alpha nodes removed] with the ships only partially manned by the GA etc, as the locals train up would provide excellent coverage if the client demands some capital ships beyond a BC, of which the GA has around 950 after the 48 lost at First Manticore if they haven't been scrapped etc; for 475 pairs or perhaps more likely singletons, without mentioning the 118 BF SD's [and the 71 damaged], for up to 1104 SD's and DN's [before future captures are added], or almost 2/3 of the non-old league SL members; not a bad ratio of potential customers to available assets over the next year or two.

IE, Lord Simper's estimate was also too long.

Of course then it becomes having you and your neighbors police your own neighborhood, vastly easing the GA resources required, NTM its no longer the GA in fact conquering or controlling the ex-SL, but the ex-SL members themselves which is the GA's goal in the first place.

Of course, then there's the question of providing who with the oldest SDP's in the years to come, though the GA might keep that card under wraps for awhile, though having such powerful ships crewed by several systems might be preferred by some stellar neighborhoods.

L

Friends the SEM would lose if they started occupying systems with troops and enforcing their rules like a conquering force would. It is flat out said by the Mantys, by the SL, by the MAlign and by RFC even, there is no way the SEM could conquer the SL. Destroy it, yes, but not conquer it because that would guarantee that there would rise yup a resistance that would sooner or later, equal the SEM militarily. Which was the gist of my comment. Everything is pointing out that the SEM, or the GA even, cannot conquer the SL.

Weird Harold wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

You need to recalculate: The Anderman Empire is NOT part of the Grand Alliance. They were explicitly excluded so there would be someone not involved against the SLN to pursue the MAlign.

Sure, that was what the whole scene with Honor and Chien-Lu discussing nano-tech was for--to justify leaving the Andies out of the new alliance. And why they didn't attend a strategy session with new treecats, like everyone else.


Rob

lyonheart wrote:Hi Zakharra,

Not quite right.

Your citation involved only the SEM, quite a different paradigm than the new combined alliance we see now, so given the GA and its allies like the IAN and Beowulf [NTM the Maya Sector], the GA theoretically could conquer the SL, if it wanted to, which it wisely doesn't.

<snip fleet strength>

Given the quarter of the SL that supported Beowulf, given population weighting, the number of actual sympathetic systems is far greater than that, probably closer to a third or ~595.

<wishful thinking /Rob>

So finding friends shouldn't be that hard for the GA, NTM providing advance bases to support extended operations in the SL, given many 2nd Haven war deep raids would easily reach to the heart of the SL which is only ~200 LY thick.

<snip local security using old ships>

IE, Lord Simper's estimate was also too long.

Of course then it becomes having you and your neighbors police your own neighborhood,

<snip, just snip, for brevity>

L

Zakharra wrote: Friends the SEM would lose if they started occupying systems with troops and enforcing their rules like a conquering force would. It is flat out said by the Mantys, by the SL, by the MAlign and by RFC even, there is no way the SEM could conquer the SL. Destroy it, yes, but not conquer it because that would guarantee that there would rise yup a resistance that would sooner or later, equal the SEM militarily. Which was the gist of my comment. Everything is pointing out that the SEM, or the GA even, cannot conquer the SL.

Semantics. Lyonheart can achieve definition 1; the GA can defeat the current federal armed forces. He cannot achieve definition 2 (secure or gain control of an area). The total number of planets involved is immaterial; what matters is the relative population, and whatever else, RFC has always claimed the vast majority of people live in the league, not the protectorates; and most of the Verge is very sparse. As Zakharra said, you need boots. Great big nasty boots, and lots of them.

Regards,

Rob

from the free dictionary dot com:

con·quer (kngkr)
v. con·quered, con·quer·ing, con·quers
v.tr.
1. To defeat or subdue by force, especially by force of arms.
2. To gain or secure control of by or as if by force of arms: scientists battling to conquer disease; a singer who conquered the operatic world.
3. To overcome or surmount by physical, mental, or moral force: I finally conquered my fear of heights. See Synonyms at defeat.
v.intr.
To be victorious; win.