New ship idea

Hi Don,

Quite right.

Bolthole delivered its last of ~800 SDP's around February 1922, but we're not sure what it filled all those yards with after the war began, speculation has been lots of CLAC's, which Bolthole can build very quickly, so some of the latest might be modified to accept Shrike's and Katana's, which given their size [8.5 MT] could be very useful in a lot of SL systems.

RHN CLAC doctrine is a bit different than the RMN's, being built around a single mission than extended raids, so more munitions might be carried by later built ships.

Improved GA LAC's will obviously be one of the first products produced at Bolthole, then subcontracted to some of the other Haven systems.

We have yet to see RHN second war designs aside from the Alpha and Beta LAC birds, but some textev implies they were being developed and some have posted their hankering for the RHN to win some against the SL with their superior tech.

A RHN DDM ought to be part of these designs by now, since the Mk-16 was demonstrated in the fall of 1920.

Much of this may be available this spring with HoS 2, to tide us over until the next HH.

Though I expect a spider drive detector to take a while longer.

L

n7axw wrote:I would think that there might be a couple of different things going on here. First are the hulls that Haven had in its building slips prior to the treaty with Manticore. I would suspect that those would be pretty much finished up as planned. I doubt that there is a great deal they can do to incorporate Manty hardware. But since they will be better than everybody else's stuff, they will still be useful.

The second thing would be after Manticore's R&D team arrives in Bolthole and Sonja and Shannon get their heads together. I would expect some combination designs that will start a bit slowly as Haven's yard capacity is upgraded and modernized that will eventually be a flood of ships of all classes that will be an improvement on both Havenite and Manty designs which will be the product of Sonja's genius and Shannon's hard headed practicality.

Then too, Simoes will probably be there. I wonder if all three of them together might not be able to produce a streak drive.

Don

Draken wrote:Another good choice of hull for CA would be hull of Warlord or Reliant class cruiser. They're much bigger so we could make something similar to Nike but on smaller scale scale. I'm thinking about 30 launchers, 10 grasers and plenty of point defence.
About similar to Hancock I was thinking about base for raiding ships, somewhere inside Core of League so they could be refueled easily and rearmed if needed. Also creating there small repair shipyard won't be a bad idea, Nike and Agamemnon are tough but somebody could get lucky shot and destroy few nodes.
What about not designing new class of SDs and only upgrade current generation of Haven ships? They're good and only we need to add Keyhole, FTL receiver and emitter, replace EW.

The difficulty with this idea is that all these ships were designed pre-Buttercup. It could be that while certain elements of their design might be retained, it's probably less expensive to design new hulls that reflect the paradigm shift with the features you really want.

Don

And on another note, the Alliance already has a forward base deep in the Heart of the League. It's called the Beowulf Terminus.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Haven is likely still be set up to build Mars-class CAs (unless they have some replacement design we haven't seen yet), but there would be so many changes needed to bring it up to even Sag-B or Avalon quality that sharing an outer hull doesn't seem like a real savings.

Likely, the only real change needed would be Mk-16 or ERM compatible launchers and possibly some additional fire control channels. Havenite electronics are a good bit more capable than anything except Manticoran Electronics, it just isn't as minaturized.

The non-weapons systems -- life support, sails, impellers, nav-aids, etc -- are all perfectly functional and over-engineered in hopes of getting an improved compensator. A manticoran/grayson compensator would be a trivial upgrade to be expected in any new Bolthole product.

Just replacing the missile tubes/magazine to Mk16 standard and compensator would bring a Mars class CA up to slightly better than Sag-B or Avalon, and additional fire-control links and electronics upgrades could bring it up close to a Sag-C standard -- depends on what's required to use a Mk16's off bore capability.

You'd really also want support for the Mantie extended range CMs, plus a Sag-C carried more CM tubes than a Mars-B so ideally you not only need bigger CM tubes, but more of them.

So you're adding larger launchers, larger feed tubes, cofferdaming around each launcher (to direct blow-out should a Mk16 reactor get hit or fail in the tube), redesigned magazine, more CM tubes, larger CM tubes/launchers.

All those larger feed tubes and bigger launcher (plus their new armor cofferdam) require lots of rearangements of other internals to make bigger openings, displacing control runs, environmental ducts, restricting passageways, shrinking compartments, etc, etc.

Then you probably want more (and extended range optimized) fire control links, new compensator (possibly new nodes; because the Mars class was designed in hopes of a ~8-10% improved compensators while the latest Mantie ones we've seen are around ~45-50% improved). Also, to get the latest Mantie FTL com transmitters might require drive node modifications/replacements.

And that's just to get their offense and hard kill defenses up near Mantie standards. If you want soft kill and recon brought up that's changes to ECM hardware, and docking bays capable of launching (and servicing) ghost rider recon drones and improved tethered decoys. That's a heck of a lot of changes even though the life support, fusion reactors, crew berthing/living areas didn't require upgrades.

Draken wrote:Is there any info about Warlord or Mars class ships? Armament, speed etc?

Yep. House of Steel has those details (indirectly).

Grayson put captured Warlord BCs into service as Convert-class ships, and captured Mars-B CAs as Proselyte-class, so House of Steel has their specs under the GSN section. (Also the older Jaynes/SITS books had Mars-B specs which matched the Proselyte-class info)

Here's a cut&paste from my cheat-sheet excel file.
Warlord-class BC
Mass 918,750 tons
Length 723 m
Beam 92 m
Draught 82 m
Acceleration 487.4 G
Missiles (broadside) 26
Missiles (chase) 6
Missiles (total) 64
Lasers (broadside) 6
Lasers (chase)
Lasers (total) 12
Grasers (broadside) 6
Grasers (chase) 2
Grasers (total) 16
CM tubes (broadside) 16
CM tubes (chase) 6
CM tubes (total) 44
PDLC (broadside) 12
PDLC (chase) 6
PDLC (total) 36


Mars-B-class CA
Mass 477,250 tons
Length 607 m
Beam 73 m
Draught 61 m
Acceleration 501.1 G
Missiles (broadside) 11
Missiles (chase) 3
Missiles (total) 28
Lasers (broadside) 12
Lasers (chase)
Lasers (total) 24
Grasers (broadside)
Grasers (chase) 3
Grasers (total) 6
CM tubes (broadside) 12
CM tubes (chase) 4
CM tubes (total) 32
PDLC (broadside) 10
PDLC (chase) 6
PDLC (total) 32

While still not textev for the comparison of BSDF and SLN SDs I found this paragraph to be telling. Bold is my emphasis.

CoG Chapter 2 wrote:The Biological Survey Corps had asked the government of Torch to provide them with a battalion for service on Parmley Station once it became clear that their plans for the station simply needed more forces that the BSC itself could provide. For all its wealth and power, Beowulf was still a one-star system and a member of the Solarian League. While the Beowulf System Defense Force was unusually large and powerful for a League member system, thanks to the existence of the Beowulf Terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, it had never needed—or maintained—a large army. Instead, it had concentrated on maintaining one whose quality was excellent, and its modest size had allowed it to be picky about the personnel it recruited and then equip them with the very best. Given the heightened political tensions of recent years, Beowulf had increased its military spending considerably, but the priority was to fully modernize its naval forces first. At least for the time being, Beowulf’s available ground and marine forces remained sparse.

What it means is up to the you. I know where I fall, I suspect those BSDF SDs are "functionally" a lot like Gryphon's . <shrug> So they are are probably worth 4-8 SLN Scientists or Vegas each.


Your opinion may differ,
T2M

stewart wrote:

n7axw wrote: I would expect some combination designs that will start a bit slowly as Haven's yard capacity is upgraded and modernized that will eventually be a flood of ships of all classes that will be an improvement on both Havenite and Manty designs which will be the product of Sonja's genius and Shannon's hard headed practicality.

Then too, Simoes will probably be there. I wonder if all three of them together might not be able to produce a streak drive.

Don

-----------------

Can you say Grnd Alliance CA's --
Modified MARS-B hull, ERM or Mk-16G missiles, 80-100cm Grasers, and streak drive.

Now all they need is the loci of Mesa / RA hidden wormholes.

-- Stewart

Unfortunately, they don't know about any secret wormholes yet, and we still have to see if anyone outside of the Manpower traffic controllers notice the odd flights of Jessek/Manpower and their subcontractors.

Since the Havenite yards will take some time to upgrade (also, re-training of personnel), they will probably merge as much of the Manticoran Saganami-type control systems as possible into a Mars-type hull. With Manticoran or Erewhonese ERMs, they likely could get from 11 missile tubes to about 16; with later Saganami-style fire control (a stacked double salvo) that would be plenty to kill off the Sollie Gladiators and lighter ships; or to go one-on-one with a Nevada.

One thing I find a bit hard to believe is how fast some people expect Haven to produce Manti-capable designs. Haven doesn't use exactly the same construction methods as Manticore; and they will need to figure out a viable design of mixed tech before they go into any sort of volume production. The fact that the political decision was to build the SD hulls in Havenite yards, then outfit them with electronics/missiles from elsewhere has already been made, doesn't mean implementing that decision is on-going already.

And they really won't need all that many ships, given the GA's superiority in pod-layers. A raider group with a 4-ship division of pod-layers for heavy stuff, and a half dozen BCs and light ships, and a CLAC will be a good mix. It will be overkill for most of the raids against FF, whose biggest ships are the Nevadas. You only need a larger group to hit the bigger BF nodes.

So if you commit 200 Invictus/Medusas into 4 ship divisions, you could build 50 such raider groups; if each one hits 4 target systems before returning to the nearest Junction terminus to re-arm, how long will the SLN exist? You can let Tourville beat on Battle Fleet.

I have to wonder if Haven will automate as much as the RMN. With access to the AARs from Terekhov, they may have some real concerns over the lack of manpower; and they don't have the manpower issues that drove the RMN into using so much automation in the first place.

Rob

Jonathan_S wrote:

Draken wrote:Is there any info about Warlord or Mars class ships? Armament, speed etc?

Yep. House of Steel has those details (indirectly).

Grayson put captured Warlord BCs into service as Convert-class ships, and captured Mars-B CAs as Proselyte-class, so House of Steel has their specs under the GSN section. (Also the older Jaynes/SITS books had Mars-B specs which matched the Proselyte-class info)

Here's a cut&paste from my cheat-sheet excel file.
Warlord-class BC
Mass 918,750 tons
Length 723 m
Beam 92 m
Draught 82 m
Acceleration 487.4 G
Missiles (broadside) 26
Missiles (chase) 6
Missiles (total) 64
Lasers (broadside) 6
Lasers (chase)
Lasers (total) 12
Grasers (broadside) 6
Grasers (chase) 2
Grasers (total) 16
CM tubes (broadside) 16
CM tubes (chase) 6
CM tubes (total) 44
PDLC (broadside) 12
PDLC (chase) 6
PDLC (total) 36


Mars-B-class CA
Mass 477,250 tons
Length 607 m
Beam 73 m
Draught 61 m
Acceleration 501.1 G
Missiles (broadside) 11
Missiles (chase) 3
Missiles (total) 28
Lasers (broadside) 12
Lasers (chase)
Lasers (total) 24
Grasers (broadside)
Grasers (chase) 3
Grasers (total) 6
CM tubes (broadside) 12
CM tubes (chase) 4
CM tubes (total) 32
PDLC (broadside) 10
PDLC (chase) 6
PDLC (total) 32

2 notes on the Mars class.

1) the original Mars and Mars B classes were really just the Havenites attempt to make a ship comparable to a Star Knight with the tech available - and they needed 50% more mass to do it. You can imagine that everything on the ship is on average 50% larger than a 1905 Manty equivalent - this includes everything from the structure of the ship to the weapons themselves. So just pulling the weapons and electronics and replacing them with Manty equivalvants is not going to get you 150 K extra tons for more weapons, it will probably give you the equivalent of a Sag-A with EDMs or mk 16s. To get anything more, We're talking a total redesign with Manty hardware.

2) From So-Sag, there appears to be a Mars-C class as well (no details given). This could be just a State Sec version of the cruiser (Larger boat bays and marine berths like the SS BCs maybe). This is also mentioned to be a horribly outdated design with problematic reactors, so a Mars-D may exist as well. (or it could be a typo, referring to the Mars A and B, which had a similiar relationship where the latter design fixed the reactor problems of the former.)

Jonathan_S wrote:So you're adding larger launchers, larger feed tubes, cofferdaming around each launcher (to direct blow-out should a Mk16 reactor get hit or fail in the tube), redesigned magazine,...

What makes you think that a Mk16G is larger than a Havenite cruiser-weight ERM? I suspect that Havenite Cruiser-weight missiles are even bigger than a Sag-B's Mk 13 ERMs.

One of Manticore's advantages has always been their ability to miniaturize things. Replacement of launchers on a 1:1 basis would leave ample room for cofferdams and other associated changes.

A Mars-B adaptation would have fewer missiles/salvo but would have longer range and bigger warheads than a Sag-B.

On reflection and comparing the stats, I was a bit optimistic in thinking a Mars-B could match a Sag-C without major modifications; it simply doesn't have the missile tubes for a simple 1:1 replacement to reach Sag-C range.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

stewart wrote:-----------------

Can you say Grnd Alliance CA's --
Modified MARS-B hull, ERM or Mk-16G missiles, 80-100cm Grasers, and streak drive.

Now all they need is the loci of Mesa / RA hidden wormholes.

-- Stewart

Unfortunately, they don't know about any secret wormholes yet, and we still have to see if anyone outside of the Manpower traffic controllers notice the odd flights of Jessek/Manpower and their subcontractors.

Since the Havenite yards will take some time to upgrade (also, re-training of personnel), they will probably merge as much of the Manticoran Saganami-type control systems as possible into a Mars-type hull. With Manticoran or Erewhonese ERMs, they likely could get from 11 missile tubes to about 16; with later Saganami-style fire control (a stacked double salvo) that would be plenty to kill off the Sollie Gladiators and lighter ships; or to go one-on-one with a Nevada.

One thing I find a bit hard to believe is how fast some people expect Haven to produce Manti-capable designs. Haven doesn't use exactly the same construction methods as Manticore; and they will need to figure out a viable design of mixed tech before they go into any sort of volume production. The fact that the political decision was to build the SD hulls in Havenite yards, then outfit them with electronics/missiles from elsewhere has already been made, doesn't mean implementing that decision is on-going already.

And they really won't need all that many ships, given the GA's superiority in pod-layers. A raider group with a 4-ship division of pod-layers for heavy stuff, and a half dozen BCs and light ships, and a CLAC will be a good mix. It will be overkill for most of the raids against FF, whose biggest ships are the Nevadas. You only need a larger group to hit the bigger BF nodes.

So if you commit 200 Invictus/Medusas into 4 ship divisions, you could build 50 such raider groups; if each one hits 4 target systems before returning to the nearest Junction terminus to re-arm, how long will the SLN exist? You can let Tourville beat on Battle Fleet.

I have to wonder if Haven will automate as much as the RMN. With access to the AARs from Terekhov, they may have some real concerns over the lack of manpower; and they don't have the manpower issues that drove the RMN into using so much automation in the first place.

Rob

I really don't know the timetable of how long it would take to modernize a reasonable percentage of Haven's building slips.

But I think that everyone on forum right now is concentrating on the SLN which is understandable since the SLN is the visible opponent. But the storyline already in COG is shifting away from the League and the real drama is going to happen in the confrontation with the Alignment.

I suspect that this is what is really driving the building program too, because as you say, they have all the firepower they need already for dealing with the League.

Don