Wasn't the ERM enough? Why bother with the Mk 16?

Jonathan_S wrote:I assume that the ERMs are larger than their SDM counterparts; if nothing else they need more capacitors to provide power for the longer run time.

So while refitting a pre-pod SD for a capital missile ERM would be less work than a fusion powered missile it wouldn't be a whole lot less than refitting for a capacitor powered MDM. You still need to refit your magazines for the new missile size and enlarge all the armored hatch ways and missile feed tube; just not enlarge them quite as much as for an MDM.

However I don't see the enhanced ERM range being worth the refit time. Not when you expect to be using your slips to be building full up SD(P)s as quickly as you can afford.

[Edit: Unless you were suggesting scalding down things like warhead size, number of lasing rods, and ECM capability to try to squeeze ERM range into something the same size as a current SDM cap ship missile. That at least wouldn't need the massive ship refits, but I think you'd be giving up a lot of capabilities to get that extra range from the same size package]

In one of his posts (he was (most irately)responding to a thread Skimper started), RFC stated that the ERM uses the same new node tech as the MDMs, and the newer higher-density capacitors that were developed both for the new drones and the shipboard LAC energy rings. So just how big that makes the Mk14//Mk36 is unknown. But the Mk16 uses the SAME laser submunitions and the SAME fusion plant as the Mk23 MDM according to a post Dukk made. The difference was the smaller missile body with fewer submunitions; the power system seems to be why a cruiser grade missile is so close to "capitol ship" size in the first place. So I don't think its completely beyond the capability to upgrade the older ship's missiles, as long as you can put it into the same basic form factor.

This is the same thing that happened with the LACs, and the new ship types, anyway. The R&D people managed to miniaturize nearly every system that went into them. They had already extended the range with the Mk27 over earlier missiles; just give them the new nodes, and the higher accel will push the range up some, even if there isn't enough storage to run them an extra half-minute. Hell, just take the warhead and the laserheads from the Mk27 and drop as much as fits on a Mk14 chassis . . . . As long as it doesn't get too big, anyway.

And, again, it wouldn't have been anything for the RMN planners except a temporary crutch in 1914; just look at all the delays they had putting 8th fleet together! And look at how many old SDs were still on the books in 1920. They may not have be pod-noughts, but that doesn't mean the RMN wouldn't have found a couple of million extra kilometers of range useful, even if they didn't want (or need) a new Gryphon-style SD. And if they can't match the new cruiser ERM, so what? As long as they faced the older, conventional ships, it wouldn't matter.

Besides, I am still only thinking about a few hundred cruiser/DD grades types, mostly for secondary escort duty.

Someone upthread suggested that the Apollos are doing that. Sure--one Apollo; about 600 personnel. A five missile salvo, as opposed to a 12 missile salvo--when you don't stack it to 24 birds. Dedicated consoles for the EW officer, improved acceleration, sensors, modern stealth; although Janacek was dumber as dirt, the people at Buships who put the Avalon/Wolfhound together were not.

Another thing to remember here, for those who say the ERM can't compete with Cataphract, is that any ship firing them from internal tubes is firing a missile from a ship class lighter. The Nevadas will be firing DD grade Spatha missiles, and the SD's will fire cruiser-grade Javelin warheads. Converting existing Trebuchet missiles into Cataphracts and getting them into pods, then distributing them on an emergency basis--to every system in Sollie Space? Unlikely, IMO. Sure, they have an advantage in range over the ERM--but they lack the fire control to do much with it. And GA ships--even the older ones--will have SLN EW profiles in their datasets, and more missile defense than the same-class version of the SLN.

The SLN won't get ships that have the same punch as either the ERM or the DDM until they build a new set of ships. Developing new ship classes takes, what did Caparelli say? Three years?

YMMV, of course. Actually, judging by most of the responses, it WILL vary.


Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Converting existing Trebuchet missiles into Cataphracts and getting them into pods, then distributing them on an emergency basis--to every system in Sollie Space? Unlikely, IMO. Sure, they have an advantage in range over the ERM--but they lack the fire control to do much with it. And GA ships--even the older ones--will have SLN EW profiles in their datasets, and more missile defense than the same-class version of the SLN.

Pretty much every SL member system can build missiles and missile pods given the design documents. Which the SLN was given IIRC.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In one of his posts (he was (most irately)responding to a thread Skimper started), RFC stated that the ERM uses the same new node tech as the MDMs, and the newer higher-density capacitors that were developed both for the new drones and the shipboard LAC energy rings. So just how big that makes the Mk14//Mk36 is unknown. But the Mk16 uses the SAME laser submunitions and the SAME fusion plant as the Mk23 MDM according to a post Dukk made. The difference was the smaller missile body with fewer submunitions; the power system seems to be why a cruiser grade missile is so close to "capitol ship" size in the first place. So I don't think its completely beyond the capability to upgrade the older ship's missiles, as long as you can put it into the same basic form factor.

This is the same thing that happened with the LACs, and the new ship types, anyway. The R&D people managed to miniaturize nearly every system that went into them. They had already extended the range with the Mk27 over earlier missiles; just give them the new nodes, and the higher accel will push the range up some, even if there isn't enough storage to run them an extra half-minute. Hell, just take the warhead and the laserheads from the Mk27 and drop as much as fits on a Mk14 chassis . . . . As long as it doesn't get too big, anyway.

Interesting, but if it's possible to miniaturize this stuff I'm wondering why it seems only the Sag-B CAs got the Mark14s, and some kind of ERM wasn't available for the older Sag-As, or Star Knights. Or for that matter for older Reliant class BCs.

I'm also a bit surprised that the MDMs would use the same node tech as the ERMs since when you look at the numbers the MDMs are still on 'classic' 60/180 second endurance nodes. I guess the same basic tech that lets an ERM node last longer might less you build an MDM node with "normal" endurance but reduced size/mass...

Jonathan_S wrote:Interesting, but if it's possible to miniaturize this stuff I'm wondering why it seems only the Sag-C CAs got the Mark14s, and some kind of ERM wasn't available for the older Sag-As, or Star Knights. Or for that matter for older Reliant class BCs.

I'm also a bit surprised that the MDMs would use the same node tech as the ERMs since when you look at the numbers the MDMs are still on 'classic' 60/180 second endurance nodes. I guess the same basic tech that lets an ERM node last longer might less you build an MDM node with "normal" endurance but reduced size/mass...

You're typing too fast--it was the Sag-B with the 14s.

It is because they can't miniaturize this stuff that relegates Erewhon to "Manticore Lite."

If I understood RFC in the first place, it is the baffle that is the difference, and the available power (fusion or capacitor), while the node tech was essentially the same for the ERM/DDM/MDM. What he said was, it is all derived from the Ghost Rider Project. That is "node tech" because he wouldn't say they were identical. He probably wouldn't have said any of it if he wasn't losing his temper.

I wish he'd just call the Bravos "Gauntlet" class. RFC didnt post that bit in a thread on missiles, it was about some skewed sort of Skimper escort, I think. (Whatever else he does, he pries a lot of stuff from the author). I spent last summer reading posts by RFC on missiles; and looking for stuff on Maya/Erewhon. But most of the latter was talked out, back in 2011 or so.

In my personal headspace, I suspect the standard missiles for the Sag-A/Alvarez/Star Knight was the mentioned-only-once Mk-13ER by 1914; it is only my guess that it could reach 12M km. The RMN had been working on improving range all the way back to 1883 when King Roger was talking about the "new nodes" of the latest gen missile, and that emphasis on miniaturization was what made the Star Knight and Valiant possible (and the series 282); it isn't too great a stretch for me to accept a final version of the Mk-13 with a somewhat greater range than what was in the Appendices at the start of the series.

I have dark suspicions as well that the reason the Janacek Admiralty axed all those Redoubtables and Prince Consorts was because their antique launchers couldn't launch the ER versions of the missiles (the Mk-13ER for the PrConsort, the Mk14 for the Redoubtables). The only thing that is sorta surprising is that the Star Knight wasn't also axed--but Mr.Ed wasn't actually building the replacements. And the SK the design is some 30 years newer, so maybe it had larger launchers. But, those are my paranoid tendencies looking for a logical, combat reason for Janacek to do something; likely wasted effort

I don't know about the Homers, but the Reliant/Courvosier used the RMN Mod 19 launcher for the BC classes. The Star Knights used Mod 7B (Fearless, anyway). I think the BCs could manage a bigger, Mk13-ER; and I cannot see even building the later Flight III/IV Reliant at all unless they could use the Mk14. But there is no textev; and text as written for Gauntlet was really messed up--there is a Pearl about that one.

As far as the duration of flight goes, it may be that the high power load for the acceleration rate is such that it is just easier to build them for that endurance level. But that is, like most of this, my WAG. We won't get any facts until BuNine can include the missile data into the next Companion.

Rob

Hi Armed Neo-Bob,

I suspect you might be right regarding why the BC's and cruisers were scrapped, sold or retired by Janacek, though the Prince Consorts age was the major reason, regardless of whether RFC or Bu9 confirm your hypothesis.

I prefer the original textev to the contradictions of the Bu9 HoS text with the original textev; the Fearless CL had 70 ton DD/CL missiles, the Fearless CA had 78 ton CA/BC missiles, essentially 11 vs 10 meters long, while SD capitol missiles were up in the 135-150 ton range.

To go from 78 tons to the Mk-16's 94 is only about a 20% mass increase, though the dimensions may be very different, so was the ERM less than a 20% mass increase?

Granted the miniaturization might not have changed the missile's dimensions, then again something could have extended them in some awkward way.

Or could it have been greater in both mass and critical materials, construction time than the Mk-16 etc; while the Mk-16 used far less, so it was indeed a no brainer to switch?

To get to just 12 M Km, would mean a 28% increase over the 180 second standard burn time [>231 seconds], though I feel a 240 second 'burn' for ~13 M km range was a more likely target.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beowulf didn't have some ERM's etc, since only a very close inspection [not going to happen] of all BSDF bases might reveal them.

L

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Interesting, but if it's possible to miniaturize this stuff I'm wondering why it seems only the Sag-C CAs got the Mark14s, and some kind of ERM wasn't available for the older Sag-As, or Star Knights. Or for that matter for older Reliant class BCs.

I'm also a bit surprised that the MDMs would use the same node tech as the ERMs since when you look at the numbers the MDMs are still on 'classic' 60/180 second endurance nodes. I guess the same basic tech that lets an ERM node last longer might less you build an MDM node with "normal" endurance but reduced size/mass...

You're typing too fast--it was the Sag-B with the 14s.

It is because they can't miniaturize this stuff that relegates Erewhon to "Manticore Lite."

If I understood RFC in the first place, it is the baffle that is the difference, and the available power (fusion or capacitor), while the node tech was essentially the same for the ERM/DDM/MDM. What he said was, it is all derived from the Ghost Rider Project. That is "node tech" because he wouldn't say they were identical. He probably wouldn't have said any of it if he wasn't losing his temper.

I wish he'd just call the Bravos "Gauntlet" class. RFC didnt post that bit in a thread on missiles, it was about some skewed sort of Skimper escort, I think. (Whatever else he does, he pries a lot of stuff from the author). I spent last summer reading posts by RFC on missiles; and looking for stuff on Maya/Erewhon. But most of the latter was talked out, back in 2011 or so.

In my personal headspace, I suspect the standard missiles for the Sag-A/Alvarez/Star Knight was the mentioned-only-once Mk-13ER by 1914; it is only my guess that it could reach 12M km. The RMN had been working on improving range all the way back to 1883 when King Roger was talking about the "new nodes" of the latest gen missile, and that emphasis on miniaturization was what made the Star Knight and Valiant possible (and the series 282); it isn't too great a stretch for me to accept a final version of the Mk-13 with a somewhat greater range than what was in the Appendices at the start of the series.

I have dark suspicions as well that the reason the Janacek Admiralty axed all those Redoubtables and Prince Consorts was because their antique launchers couldn't launch the ER versions of the missiles (the Mk-13ER for the PrConsort, the Mk14 for the Redoubtables). The only thing that is sorta surprising is that the Star Knight wasn't also axed--but Mr.Ed wasn't actually building the replacements. And the SK the design is some 30 years newer, so maybe it had larger launchers. But, those are my paranoid tendencies looking for a logical, combat reason for Janacek to do something; likely wasted effort

I don't know about the Homers, but the Reliant/Courvosier used the RMN Mod 19 launcher for the BC classes. The Star Knights used Mod 7B (Fearless, anyway). I think the BCs could manage a bigger, Mk13-ER; and I cannot see even building the later Flight III/IV Reliant at all unless they could use the Mk14. But there is no textev; and text as written for Gauntlet was really messed up--there is a Pearl about that one.

As far as the duration of flight goes, it may be that the high power load for the acceleration rate is such that it is just easier to build them for that endurance level. But that is, like most of this, my WAG. We won't get any facts until BuNine can include the missile data into the next Companion.

Rob

lyonheart wrote:Hi Armed Neo-Bob,

I suspect you might be right regarding why the BC's and cruisers were scrapped, sold or retired by Janacek, though the Prince Consorts age was the major reason, regardless of whether RFC or Bu9 confirm your hypothesis.

I prefer the original textev to the contradictions of the Bu9 HoS text with the original textev; the Fearless CL had 70 ton DD/CL missiles, the Fearless CA had 78 ton CA/BC missiles, essentially 11 vs 10 meters long, while SD capitol missiles were up in the 135-150 ton range.

To go from 78 tons to the Mk-16's 94 is only about a 20% mass increase, though the dimensions may be very different, so was the ERM less than a 20% mass increase?

Granted the miniaturization might not have changed the missile's dimensions, then again something could have extended them in some awkward way.

Or could it have been greater in both mass and critical materials, construction time than the Mk-16 etc; while the Mk-16 used far less, so it was indeed a no brainer to switch?

To get to just 12 M Km, would mean a 28% increase over the 180 second standard burn time [>231 seconds], though I feel a 240 second 'burn' for ~13 M km range was a more likely target.

Based on some (vague) numbers from MoH for the Ephraim Tudor I had tentatively tagged the Mk14 ERM as possibly having as much as a 90/270 second 'burn' for a 16.4 million km range. (It implied that 15 million km was definitely within it's range, and that was the next "even" value above that)

Most other people's ERMs (the Technodyne pods at Monica, and it seems the Hellbarde's missiles) seem to be more like 75/225 seconds.

OTOH the Erewhonese derivative of the Mk14 does (IIRC) have more solid numbers provided and seemed to a 92,000/46,000g 75/225s bird; giving a max powered range of 11.4 million km. But those numbers don't seem to provide the comfortable range advantage over the Hellbarde that Jessica Epps had; so I think the Mantie version, as of MoH, had better endurance.

Hi, Lyonheart!

let's see if I can get this together and make sense. Stupid trackpad makes typing annoying. Oh, and you can just call me Rob, its shorter.

lyonheart wrote: Hi Armed Neo-Bob,

I suspect you might be right regarding why the BC's and cruisers were scrapped, sold or retired by Janacek, though the Prince Consorts age was the major reason, regardless of whether RFC or Bu9 confirm your hypothesis.

[Edit: I said it might be because they can't fire ERM missiles of any stripe--Mk13ER or Mk14)--Rob]

I prefer the original textev to the contradictions of the Bu9 HoS text with the original textev; the Fearless CL had 70 ton DD/CL missiles, the Fearless CA had 78 ton CA/BC missiles, essentially 11 vs 10 meters long, while SD capitol missiles were up in the 135-150 ton range.

To go from 78 tons to the Mk-16's 94 is only about a 20% mass increase, though the dimensions may be very different, so was the ERM less than a 20% mass increase?

**In SoSag, the topic of size came up. The SK class couldn't fit in the Mk 14, and the Sag-B's tubes were too small for the Mk-16 (ignoring the need for the fusion plant start-up). While a launcher can fire a missile smaller that the one it is designed for, RFC has always been vague about just how much room there is for a larger missile. I noticed the 20% increase and guessed at a size for the Mk-14 that was 86-90 tons (10-15% larger than the Mk13). Essentially, just splitting the difference.

But it is worth noting, that both the nodes AND the energy supply (capacitors) were products of Ghost Rider, and not available earlier; and some of the greater range is the higher accel, not just a longer run-time. Which, also might increase the ranges on the older missile designs, as well. /Rob

lyonheart wrote:Granted the miniaturization might not have changed the missile's dimensions, then again something could have extended them in some awkward way.

Or could it have been greater in both mass and critical materials, construction time than the Mk-16 etc; while the Mk-16 used far less, so it was indeed a no brainer to switch?

To get to just 12 M Km, would mean a 28% increase over the 180 second standard burn time [>231 seconds], though I feel a 240 second 'burn' for ~13 M km range was a more likely target.

I wouldn't be surprised if Beowulf didn't have some ERM's etc, since only a very close inspection [not going to happen] of all BSDF bases might reveal them.

L

SNIPPING
burn time:
Roszak tells Barregos his Mk17es outranged the Cataphracts (apparently he test-fired some he recovered from the hulked ships). Assuming the Mk17 and the Mk14 have the same range (NOT a testable assumption), I am guessing the Manti ERM to range out to a light minute. Nice, round number. . .

I think your burn time is predicated on the 85K g accel for the Mk13? That being in the 1900-1905, pre-war timeframe, yes? In HOS, Adcock is thinking about missiles, and capitol ship missiles as far back as 1883 had higher accel rates, as well as a 25 lightsecond runtime. I rough-guess that to around 7.5M km, more or less. Quite a bit more than old Nike's cruiser-class missiles (6.9M km, wasn't it?)

missile mass:
The missiles on Wayfarer were 120 ton Mk27C's. Text in HAE. I haven't seen any other text with missile tonnages being explicit for the SD/DN grade missile. Oh except for the odd one in the Fleet Exercise in OBS; then the 75 ton SD laserhead made its one and only appearance.

Oh, and about the age of the Prince Consort cruisers--the Redoubtables were a good 70 years older for the first flight, and the Courageous class lasted almost a century (some still in GSN commission). It isn't the age, it is whether there is room for new equipment in refits-- which the 1850-style Prince Consorts did NOT have. And it was mentioned somewhere that the Redoubtables were having trouble getting parts for repairing systems made last made when the Homer debuted in the 1860s. In addition to being difficult to bring up to spec, both were also personnel hogs in these days of automation; axing them was Janacek's "fleet modernization" program.

For that matter, the Apollos, which are older, are still in use.

Nice to hear from you!

Rob

kzt wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Converting existing Trebuchet missiles into Cataphracts and getting them into pods, then distributing them on an emergency basis--to every system in Sollie Space? Unlikely, IMO. Sure, they have an advantage in range over the ERM--but they lack the fire control to do much with it. And GA ships--even the older ones--will have SLN EW profiles in their datasets, and more missile defense than the same-class version of the SLN.

Pretty much every SL member system can build missiles and missile pods given the design documents. Which the SLN was given IIRC.

Sure, they could; but without any homefleet but a few LACs, most of their 1875 members are hardly primed for immediate conversion to military production. Technodyne probably gave the SLN the Cataphract design, but so what? Most of them are unaccustomed to even thinking about threats. Or they rely on the SLN.

Remember Yellow Rose the Third? "What do events in New Tuscany have to do with us? " (in Mendelschoen)


The SLN HQ in Sol was up to its eyelids in re-organizing Technodyne after its stock collapse--I expect the Cataphract design they got will be going out to their other military contractors as well. But it likely isn't building very fast yet. Technodynes' investors will likely try to get a monopoly for themselves.

The big drawback with the Cat. still is not whether it outranges the GA older ships' missiles--it is whether they can score a hit at the extended range with the same old fire control.

But, as Scotty pointed out, even before Buttercup--Haven (or anyone else) could match Manticore's missile performance with off-the-shelf components if they were willing to just make the missiles big enough.

One of the League's big problems (in a political, reaction sense) is communication flow. How long will it be before HQ /ONI completes its "analysis" ? Which of the current Admirals are going to admit how badly they screwed up at ONI in the first place? How long before they can deliver the intel to the different system commands? How long before the excessively competent people reading that analysis accept it (especially given the quality of analysis previously seen as coming out of ONI)?

The response is all too likely to be arthritic. Frozen buttercups. . . .


Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:<snip> For that matter, the Apollos, which are older, are still in use.

Nice to hear from you!

Rob

Hey Rob, in the details of the Apollo design, there is a note that the current Apollos are all Flight IV, a restart of the basic design built AFTER at least 2 other CL designs (only the Valiant and Avalons are newer designs than the Apollo flight IV). The update got newer electronics and more defenses in place of a laser.

Theemile wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:<snip> For that matter, the Apollos, which are older, are still in use.

Nice to hear from you!

Rob

Hey Rob, in the details of the Apollo design, there is a note that the current Apollos are all Flight IV, a restart of the basic design built AFTER at least 2 other CL designs (only the Valiant and Avalons are newer designs than the Apollo flight IV). The update got newer electronics and more defenses in place of a laser.

Thanks, I saw that. The Illustrious didn't work out, so they updated the older design instead of fixing the new one. I wonder how much that might have had to do with the fact that the Apollos were built by Hauptmann?

Also, did you notice that the Valiant is (like Star Knight) a two-deck offensive ship? The text doesn't say so, but the illustration is quite plain about it. All the text about a "down-sized" Star Knight that went into the Marksman description in ToF applies just as well to the Valiant. The same number of missiles (8), and an even heavier beam armament than the Prince Consort.

In fact, if we'd ever seen a Valiant previously, Rozsak likely would have made the comparison to the Valiant, instead.

Rob