(SPOILERS) Dialydd's report

PeterZ wrote:SNIP

I agree with what you say for the most part. I just think that Nynian might well be someone like Theisman in the Honorverse. She will be an honorable enemy before she becomes a boon companion. Most of my reasoning is plot driven and so is truly pure speculation.

The primary driver for my suspicion is the need to transition away from this no holds barred warfare to a conflict that does not forget the enemy is still human. Sure the combatants disagree powerfully, but the disagreement is an honest one.

Once the all combatants recognize the basic humanity of the other side, a resolution is possible. I believe that Nynian is one possible means RFC can use to move the characters to that end.

MY BOLDINGS
Nynian, an honorable enemy? I have no idea of what you think Nynian might do as an "honorable enemy".I need some more words here.

We just had the crews of captured merchantmen slaughtered. It's not known if the folks doing the murdering chose to not administer The Punishment because they didn't have time to heat up irons to burn out eyes, or, if they thought the prisoners weren't really such bad fellows who didn't deserve to die such a horrible death.
BGV is about to find the concentration camp sites. I'm not sure how this, after the atrocities of the SOS, is going to move anyone closer to thinking of the Temple Boys as another human being. The EOC is executing Inquisitors who are priests in the Temple Boys' church.

Peter, I don't know if the hatred created by this war will ever go away. How long will it be before a Charisian or Dohlaran merchant sailor will be able to tip a few in a waterfront pub in a COGA or EOC port? Merlin knows how bad religious war is, and he's said often that the next war's gonna be worse. IMHO folks will come to respect the abilities of the other side but it's gonna be a long time before they look at each other as human beings

I'm afraid I have to side with Ed on this one. As long as the inquisition is out there and in control of the COGA effort, this is no holds barred warfare and can be nothing else.

As for Nynian, I recognize what Peter is worried about, but am more opptimistic than he is about how it will turn out.

Don

Ed and Don,

Of course the hatred runs deep. One side justifies atrocities as a moral imperative because "God wills it". The other side knows it loves God and doesn't deserve these atrocities visited upon it. Obviously, both sides contend that to be on the other side is to follow darkness. To follow darkness is to forsake the basic humanity granted by God.

The CoC doesn't preach this but tell that to the Siddermarkian who has witnessed vile atrocities performed by the priests of the God that Siddermarkian loves so much. How can that Siddermarkian ever tolerate even the presence of a demon-schwanz-sucking-offspring of a sandworm and a desiesed spider-rat temple loyalist?

Unless there is a reconciliation, peace will only come upon the defiled grave of either the last Temple Loyalist or Reformer/CoC member. That would both set back humanities preparation for the Gbaba as well as scar the collective souls of Safehold humanity. No. There WILL be reconciliation of some sort short of that final solution.

PeterZ wrote:Ed and Don,

Of course the hatred runs deep. One side justifies atrocities as a moral imperative because "God wills it". The other side knows it loves God and doesn't deserve these atrocities visited upon it. Obviously, both sides contend that to be on the other side is to follow darkness. To follow darkness is to forsake the basic humanity granted by God.

The CoC doesn't preach this but tell that to the Siddermarkian who has witnessed vile atrocities performed by the priests of the God that Siddermarkian loves so much. How can that Siddermarkian ever tolerate even the presence of a demon schwanz sucking offspring of a sandworm and a rat-lizard temple loyalist?

Unless there is a reconciliation, peace will only come upon the defiled grave of either the last Temple Loyalist or Reformer/CoC member. That would both set back humanities preparation for the Gbaba as well as scar the collective souls of Safehold humanity. No. There WILL be reconciliation of some sort short of that final solution.

Yes. But only after the inquisition is dealt with and there is justice for their crimes. There is no more possibility for reconciliation until that happens than there was prior to the overthrow of the Nazis and Hitler's SS in WW2.

I, for my own part, have no doubt but what DE's soldiers understand their counterparts on the other side as human beings, people they must kill because they have been trapped and misled into defending a corrupt and evil system in the name of religion. The Alliance has not been the side committing the atrocities. POWs are being fed and decently treated with care being provided for enemy wounded. War being what it is, I'm sure there are going to be such things as the Safeholden equivalent of Mai Lai on the allied side.

But here is the difference. The COGA uses torture, massacure, and other kinds of atrocity as official policy. The alliance does not. Failure to come to grips with this can only lead to a sense of false equivalency beween the two sides.

The thing of it is that even the worst inquisitor has at rock bottom to know that the crimes he commits are wrong. He can rationalize it away with official sanction or even the Writ. He can smother his conscience with pious "hatred of heresy." He still knows it's wrong because the laws of God are written on the human heart. There is plenty of evidence for that in David's books.

Some of the worst crimes in human history have been done in the name of religion of which we have more than ample evidence in our own here and now.


End of rant.

Don

Sorry, Don, but tell that to the Glacierheart captain serving under Colonel Byrk forgot-his-last-name of the Glacietheart volunteers. Saw his entire family defiled in the most disgusting ways and had to put their bodies to rest. It wasn't the inquisition that did that. The perpetrators were simple Temple Loyalists. Killing every Inquisitors will do nothing for Cpt. Wallace.

I think you are projecting a largely Charisian view on Siddermarkians. There are much more Siddermakians than Charisians and they will deal with loyalist mainlanders more than their allies.

Peter,
I think we're in violent agreement that there has to be a reconciliation. I don't think much will come from institutional actions. Cayleb requiring the occupied COGA states to eliminate serfdom might be an exception to this.
I believe the reconciliation will come at at a personal level where people, individuals, help each other with no religious context.
A lot of it will start at the docks. Sailors and landsmen fighting a fire on a pier, a healer helping an injured person or helping a woman deliver a child.
COC and COGA churches in Silkiah helping each other in their neighborhoods. Parish priests will be a powerful agent here, much more so than bishops and vicars.
An increase in literacy in the COGA countries will be a factor as people are exposed to more than what the priest says in church.
Howsmyn will sell a steam engine to a textile factory in Gorath. A Dohlaran mechanic, being trained by one of the Charisian mechanics sent along to get the machine up and running, will come up with a solution the Charisian has never seen before and before you know it, you have two mechanics talking about their machine. Maybe the Dohlaran will invite the Charisian home for Wednesday dinner.
And so on....

Ed,

The Temple Loyalists WILL look to the CoGA for guidance. Thinking that the vast majority of mainlanders will both give up the belief that the CoGA is the proper moral barometer to guide their own views and that religion is essential to living a just life is folly. People on both sides of this fight can take a message from the CoGA if the CoGA acknowledges its wrong doing. No other body/organization has a prayer of doing that.

So my point stands. If Nynian listens to Merlin's story and decides that Merlin is misguided, she will act against him. She will certainly kill Clyntahn but might act to support Duchairn. With her help Duchairn will be seriously tough. With her help Duchairn can act to bring morality back to the CoGA. Whatever cold war that ends up being fought will be fought between two sides that know they are fighting other human beings. In the process the sides move closer to a reconciliation until The Return.

PeterZ wrote:Ed,

The Temple Loyalists WILL look to the CoGA for guidance. Thinking that the vast majority of mainlanders will both give up the belief that the CoGA is the proper moral barometer to guide their own views and that religion is essential to living a just life is folly. People on both sides of this fight can take a message from the CoGA if the CoGA acknowledges its wrong doing. No other body/organization has a prayer of doing that.

So my point stands. If Nynian listens to Merlin's story and decides that Merlin is misguided, she will act against him. She will certainly kill Clyntahn but might act to support Duchairn. With her help Duchairn will be seriously tough. With her help Duchairn can act to bring morality back to the CoGA. Whatever cold war that ends up being fought will be fought between two sides that know they are fighting other human beings. In the process the sides move closer to a reconciliation until The Return.

Peter,

I agree with you that the role for Nynian in this story is not yet clear. But she suspects that humankind comes from another place than the writ tells. And that there are still more humans there.

As far as she beliefs in a God, it is not the god of the CoGA, but the metaphysical being the other believers, who visited the monastery of St. Zernau and kept their faith, found in their heart and soul.

She can be a bridge figure, but not by aligning herself with a part of the CoGA.

Just my two cents.

Hi Peter,

In terms of the consequence of this, reconciliation will be far more elusive than either of us can visualize.

As for Wahlys Mahkhom, the wound will probably never heal even with his chief protagonist dead. You say that the inquisition doesn't make a difference? Quite to the contrary, he knows exactly who set his enemy at his throat to murder his family just as the rest of Siddarmark knows who unleashed the Sword of Schuler and who were the chief agitators stirring up their own Temple Loyalists, instigating all the burning, murder and rapine that washed across the Western Republic like a flood.

As for Siddarmark's Temple Loyalists, I haven't a clue how to deal with that and I won't pretend to have the wisdom to propose a solution.

But I would be shocked if the Lord Protector were willing to stop short of hauling Clyntahn out of his Lair in the Temple and completely eradicating every trace of the inquisition.

Furthermore, no one should expect anything else. If we are lucky justice can come in the form of Nurenburg style trials. More than likely it will be far more crude and less discriminating. But without justice there will be no healing at all, no reconciliation.

Don

PeterZ wrote:Sorry, Don, but tell that to the Glacierheart captain serving under Colonel Byrk forgot-his-last-name of the Glacietheart volunteers. Saw his entire family defiled in the most disgusting ways and had to put their bodies to rest. It wasn't the inquisition that did that. The perpetrators were simple Temple Loyalists. Killing every Inquisitors will do nothing for Cpt. Wallace.

I think you are projecting a largely Charisian view on Siddermarkians. There are much more Siddermakians than Charisians and they will deal with loyalist mainlanders more than their allies.

On the other hand, look what happened in EU after WWII. It took only 25 Years to settle things at comfortable level between Germans and other nations. There was still a few holdovers on each side (hatred and zealotry are hard to shake out), but as newer generations come in, and the reasons for hate disappear, things got better.

There is probably today a warmer feeling toward Germans in France than toward our much longer rival, England.