SPOILER: LaMA ans Snippet #7 : MISSING the ELEPHANT

Hi InvisibleBison,

The range of possibilities become ever so fascinating don't they?

If the staffers don't trust Clyntahn or even Rayno who do they go to?

Magwair?

What can he do when everyone knows the inquisition controls all the military power in Zion and the temple.

Perhaps this is where Duchairn and Nynian come in...

Will RFC let us read such snippets if they happen soon?

Just a terrible thought, pay it no attention...

L

InvisibleBison wrote:*quote="Kakai"*

Will Duchairn and Magwair accuse him (Clyntahn) of incompetence?
Or at least ask him what happened?*quote*

Unlikely. Everybody is scared dead of GI, so they won't confront him directly. Chatting about it in the halls, on the other hand... yeah, that would happen, which renders your next question... interesting.

Everyone is scared of Clyntahn because of his command of the Inquisition. But if the Inquisition starts to doubt his competence, things could get ... interesting.

lyonheart wrote:Hi InvisibleBison,

The range of possibilities become ever so fascinating don't they?

If the staffers don't trust Clyntahn or even Rayno who do they go to?

Magwair?

What can he do when everyone knows the inquisition controls all the military power in Zion and the temple.

Perhaps this is where Duchairn and Nynian come in...

Will RFC let us read such snippets if they happen soon?

Just a terrible thought, pay it no attention...

L

Oh yes he will! But it will be cut short and we have to wait until the book is published before we finally find out how it all ends!

Hi Kakai,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

Option 1 seems somewhat unlikely given all the possible spies or sources to report EHM's arrival and travel, while the temple knows everything that goes on in the Dohlaran court in Gorath City.

Take that as a given, please; if they don't they've become far less competent than they were in OAR etc.

Option 2 has an excellent possibility; Allayn Magwair is indeed the Temple guard Captain general, so he should know everything pertaining to the military, but that assumes Clyntahn lets him know.

Which we know Clyntahn hasn't, and Magwair knows he hasn't in the past.

Clyntahn may well have ignored the reports about how bad the AoJ's logistics were; first, since he expects God to make it all work triumphantly [for him], and they were too technical in a specialty he didn't really understand except it was Duchairn's and he didn't want Duchairn getting any closer to Magwair to fix it [we have textev for that], and he may indeed seen the reports just as sour grape complaints by Ahlverez, however accurately they predicted what happened.

NTM the RDA had far more of the modern weapons etc, if Clyntahn had realized just how incompetent Traykos, Harless, Hennet, and Hankey were.

Given how smart Clyntahn often is, I wonder if he saw it coming and how he prepared for the crash.

I've pointed out how I think Father Sulyvyn and Tymythy's reports may have differed, which should have been another clue if anyone had paid attention.

Keep these excellent posts coming!

L

Kakai wrote:Wow, dear, that's a lot of conclusions to take on at once. Anyway, good points.

The IDA screwed up its logistics again; the AoJ was doomed from the moment Duke Traykos refused Duchairn's offer to supply the AoJ.
Aside: Why wasn't Traykos overridden?

Option 1 is that CoGA simply didn't know about it. I'm not sure if Alvarez wrote home about this failed attempt. If he did - he might, as he complained a lot in this letters - it's unsure whether his bosses passed it on to the Temple. It doesn't look very well if one (more reluctant) member of holy war complains about another (far more eager to fight).
Option 2 is that Magwair (is it the right name? I mean military commander of Go4) didn't know about it. More likely than not, all Alvarez's reports went through the hands of Inquisition. Clyntahn wouldn't recognize logistic problems if they introduced themselves, so he might've dismissed Alvarez's pleads as unnecessary complaints along the lines of I-want-to-be-in-charge-why-Desnairans-must-be-in-charge-bweee!

Will Duchairn and Magwair accuse him (Clyntahn) of incompetence?
Or at least ask him what happened?

Unlikely. Everybody is scared dead of GI, so they won't confront him directly. Chatting about it in the halls, on the other hand... yeah, that would happen, which renders your next question... interesting.

But do they even know that something like that has happened? Even we, the readers, noticed (or, rather, only you noticed) that very late, and we have the "outsiders" position and see most of what's happening.

Lazalarlives' points regarding all the rest are, IMO, completely right.

--
Edited once to avoid confusion.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Kakai,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

Thanks

lyonheart wrote:Allayn Magwair is indeed the Temple guard Captain general, so he should know everything pertaining to the military, but that assumes Clyntahn lets him know.

Which we know Clyntahn hasn't, and Magwair knows he hasn't in the past.

That opens an interesting question: what will Magwair do about it? I wonder if he shook off his fear of Clyntahn he had before he turned out to be military genius. If he did (and he probably did, given recent textev about him), he will probably act somehow. Not in a direct confrontation - that would be suicide, and he's no idiot.

He might seek some allies then. Trynair is out of the question, as he's recently playing the part of Mr Invisible, so that leaves Duchairn. Then we can wonder if there is some connection between Duchairn and Nynian (some people mentioned it above). If there is, possibility of coup d'etat is rising.

Or he could use his Temple Guard, of which he is, after all, supreme commander. IIRC, there are still some Temple Guards in the Temple. If their numbers are anything like Inquisition's, then I'd say they could beat them - after all, Inquisitors are not trained in the ways TGs are. OTOH, Inqusition has all this wonderful "magic" toys, so I'd say that in event of confrontation, chances would be quite even. (Think about this action scenes! )
Of course, it's entirely possible TGs in the Temple are Inquisition's agents, like the one who gutted Hawerd Wyllsyn. Then consequences for Magwair would be catastrophic then if he tried to use them.

Or he might not act so openly. For now, before he's sure he can win if he tries, that's probably the best course of action. Then what can he do? He can try to bypass Inquisition. Maybe try to recruit his own agents (which he has no idea how to do, to be honest), or find some alternative communication methods with his commanders, so that a copy of the reports would go straight to him, without censure.

I can actually see Merlin (in one of his alter personas) helping to set up such a communication route. Mind, this might help CoGA's war effort, but then it would also help creating deeper and deeper diversion between Go4 (although I'm not sure if they can get any deeper). If Clyntahn finds out about it... well, Magwair either acts of dies.

Or, if Magwair has more sense than to trust a stranger, he can ask Duchairn for help. Every army needs clerks, right? And clerks are Duchairn's employees. Bam, ready spy network. And if Duchair truly is in a league with Nynian, well, that's even better.

Of course, the implications of general's need to spy on his own army are entire matter altogether.

lyonheart wrote:Which we know Clyntahn hasn't, and Magwair knows he hasn't in the past.

Clyntahn may well have ignored the reports about how bad the AoJ's logistics were; first, since he expects God to make it all work triumphantly [for him], and they were too technical in a specialty he didn't really understand except it was Duchairn's and he didn't want Duchairn getting any closer to Magwair to fix it [we have textev for that], and he may indeed seen the reports just as sour grape complaints by Ahlverez, however accurately they predicted what happened.

Wait a sec, while Clyntahn might be able to hide reports about the Desnairan's screwed logistics from Magwair, there's no way in hell he can hide it from Duchairn. Why? Because we've been shown already that Duchairn is the one who controls the Church's logistics.

In LAMA, we're told that all the supplies bound for the Desnairan and Dohlaran armies were being logjammed where the Church controlled logistics train ended because the Desnairans didn't bring enough transport to pick them up fast enough. That alone would be enough to prove that the Desnairans had screwed up logistics and should have been reported to Duchairn as part of Duchairn's duties.

So what the Go4 knows is...
a) The Desnairans weren't picking up the supplies earmarked for them because they didn't have enough transport.
b) Reports that the Desnairan/Dohlaran army was starving because they couldn't get enough food.

Just those two facts alone should tell the Go4 who is really to blame for the disaster.

Kakai wrote:
Or he could use his Temple Guard, of which he is, after all, supreme commander. IIRC, there are still some Temple Guards in the Temple. If their numbers are anything like Inquisition's, then I'd say they could beat them - after all, Inquisitors are not trained in the ways TGs are. OTOH, Inqusition has all this wonderful "magic" toys, so I'd say that in event of confrontation, chances would be quite even. (Think about this action scenes! )
Of course, it's entirely possible TGs in the Temple are Inquisition's agents, like the one who gutted Hawerd Wyllsyn. Then consequences for Magwair would be catastrophic then if he tried to use them.

It's an interesting idea, but it's not possible. Clyntahn knows the Temple Guard - and the Army of God that has spawned off of it - could be dangerous to him, and he's taken measures to counter it. There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

InvisibleBison wrote:It's an interesting idea, but it's not possible. Clyntahn knows the Temple Guard - and the Army of God that has spawned off of it - could be dangerous to him, and he's taken measures to counter it. There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

Hm, but what if Charis help a little to... presuade the Clyntahn? For example, if some charisian warships appeared in sea near Zion (and maybe even shell the city) and the Church spies manage to obtain some (fake, of course) information, that would hint about the planned Charisian attack on Zion - even the Clyntahn may find it pretty hard to convince all the vicarate that his Inquisitors would be able to protect them. Especially if something like KH's would already be in action in Gulf of Dohlar.

And if the Clyntahn would be forced to agree with a large AoG contingent in Zion...

InvisibleBison wrote:There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

I'm fairly confident there's no SWAT-esque unit inside Inquisition, or otherwise we'd have seen them at this stage of war. On the unrelated note, do we consider Temple Guard a military or paramilitary outfit? Wordplay is neither below or beyond RFC!

Sadly, there's no textev, between the lines or not, about changing attitudes of Inquisitors. With probably one example (the Intendant who helped Zagyrsk, I think), they all seem to support GI.

Dilandu wrote:Hm, but what if Charis help a little to... presuade the Clyntahn? For example, if some charisian warships appeared in sea near Zion (and maybe even shell the city) and the Church spies manage to obtain some (fake, of course) information, that would hint about the planned Charisian attack on Zion - even the Clyntahn may find it pretty hard to convince all the vicarate that his Inquisitors would be able to protect them. Especially if something like KH's would already be in action in Gulf of Dohlar.

And if the Clyntahn would be forced to agree with a large AoG contingent in Zion...

That could be arranged, if only Inner Circle would know what's going on inside the Temple. They don't, unless Nynian will share some really cool info source.

Back to this idea of Duchair and Nynian cooperating (I know it's improbable, but it opens so many possibilities!), if one or another Vicar could arrange passing on a note with an interesting offer, that makes your scenario even more probable.

Or it could happen "naturally", so to put it. It would be kind of logical for Charis to arrive in whereabouts of the Temple, if only to scare them. Then it would be time for somebody to play Xanatos Speed Chess...*

I am probably overanalizing, but I really like your idea.

*refer to TVTropes, if you don't know that one.

Hi Kakai,

You've just echoed a thread from a year or two back, when Clyntahn's actions were first questioned and his possible ulterior motives broached.

So congratulate yourself on an excellent ignorant summation of several pages of posts here, thus saving several million electrons!

Looking forward to more excellent posts.

L

Kakai wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Kakai,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

Thanks

lyonheart wrote:Allayn Magwair is indeed the Temple guard Captain general, so he should know everything pertaining to the military, but that assumes Clyntahn lets him know.

Which we know Clyntahn hasn't, and Magwair knows he hasn't in the past.

That opens an interesting question: what will Magwair do about it? I wonder if he shook off his fear of Clyntahn he had before he turned out to be military genius. If he did (and he probably did, given recent textev about him), he will probably act somehow. Not in a direct confrontation - that would be suicide, and he's no idiot.

He might seek some allies then. Trynair is out of the question, as he's recently playing the part of Mr Invisible, so that leaves Duchairn. Then we can wonder if there is some connection between Duchairn and Nynian (some people mentioned it above). If there is, possibility of coup d'etat is rising.

Or he could use his Temple Guard, of which he is, after all, supreme commander. IIRC, there are still some Temple Guards in the Temple. If their numbers are anything like Inquisition's, then I'd say they could beat them - after all, Inquisitors are not trained in the ways TGs are. OTOH, Inqusition has all this wonderful "magic" toys, so I'd say that in event of confrontation, chances would be quite even. (Think about this action scenes! )
Of course, it's entirely possible TGs in the Temple are Inquisition's agents, like the one who gutted Hawerd Wyllsyn. Then consequences for Magwair would be catastrophic then if he tried to use them.

Or he might not act so openly. For now, before he's sure he can win if he tries, that's probably the best course of action. Then what can he do? He can try to bypass Inquisition. Maybe try to recruit his own agents (which he has no idea how to do, to be honest), or find some alternative communication methods with his commanders, so that a copy of the reports would go straight to him, without censure.

I can actually see Merlin (in one of his alter personas) helping to set up such a communication route. Mind, this might help CoGA's war effort, but then it would also help creating deeper and deeper diversion between Go4 (although I'm not sure if they can get any deeper). If Clyntahn finds out about it... well, Magwair either acts of dies.

Or, if Magwair has more sense than to trust a stranger, he can ask Duchairn for help. Every army needs clerks, right? And clerks are Duchairn's employees. Bam, ready spy network. And if Duchair truly is in a league with Nynian, well, that's even better.

Of course, the implications of general's need to spy on his own army are entire matter altogether.

Hi EvilAuthor,

Yep, the Desnari high command who were sure they'd fixed their logistic problems.

Kudos for an excellent point!

So we have Clyntahn's failure to report EHM's convoy arriving and is coming down the Branath Canal, DE's and Hanth's reinforcements while Duchairn didn't do all he could have for the Desnari, even though we know they said no thanks.

To understand this seems to demand a Go4 conference in October or November so we know what the Go4 decided to do about EHM's arrival and apparent travel destination, besides the AoJ's supply shortfall.

If Rhobair Duchairn didn't try to help when he knew the Desnari were short of dragons and wagons, he might easily be the scapegoat; would this trigger his coup attempt?

Is this what worries Nynian?

L

evilauthor wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Which we know Clyntahn hasn't, and Magwair knows he hasn't in the past.

Clyntahn may well have ignored the reports about how bad the AoJ's logistics were; first, since he expects God to make it all work triumphantly [for him], and they were too technical in a specialty he didn't really understand except it was Duchairn's and he didn't want Duchairn getting any closer to Magwair to fix it [we have textev for that], and he may indeed seen the reports just as sour grape complaints by Ahlverez, however accurately they predicted what happened.

Wait a sec, while Clyntahn might be able to hide reports about the Desnairan's screwed logistics from Magwair, there's no way in hell he can hide it from Duchairn. Why? Because we've been shown already that Duchairn is the one who controls the Church's logistics.

In LAMA, we're told that all the supplies bound for the Desnairan and Dohlaran armies were being logjammed where the Church controlled logistics train ended because the Desnairans didn't bring enough transport to pick them up fast enough. That alone would be enough to prove that the Desnairans had screwed up logistics and should have been reported to Duchairn as part of Duchairn's duties.

So what the Go4 knows is...
a) The Desnairans weren't picking up the supplies earmarked for them because they didn't have enough transport.
b) Reports that the Desnairan/Dohlaran army was starving because they couldn't get enough food.

Just those two facts alone should tell the Go4 who is really to blame for the disaster.