OBS Invulnerable?

InvisibleBison wrote:Why would the OBS have a standard TFN AI running it? Langhonre built it after reaching Safehold; it makes sense that he would put a customize AI in control (assuming there actually is an AI controlling it, which as far as I know is just speculation).

Because he built it from supplies in a Federation Warship from blueprints stored in a Federation Warship's computers? Why would he Reinvent The Wheel?

InvisibleBison wrote:I see no reason why Langhorne - or whoever controlled the OBS after the War Against the Fallen - couldn't have implemented whatever security precautions he or they felt necessary. And if that is the case, it's likely going to deny access to anyone not on the side of the "Archangels" as of the end of the WAtF, so Nimue Alban would have no access.

If there were any surviving "Archangels" or any other Terran Federation members, you might be right. The OBS was heavily reinforced after Langhorne's death, according to OWL, and there is evidence to suggest the Rakuri was used after the last Adam died. That strongly suggests that the OBS recognized a chain of "surviving command authority." If the OBS recognizes either PICA as a legitimate successor to the command crew, it can be controlled.

The alternative is for MWW to contrive some way the command/adminstrative password is passed down through a millennium or so to some person who doesn't recognized it for what it is.

Firstly, we should put HFQ Snippit Spoiler Warnings on these kinds of posts (That is, posts with spoilers from the HFQ Snippets ).

Weird Harold wrote:

InvisibleBison wrote:Why would the OBS have a standard TFN AI running it? Langhonre built it after reaching Safehold; it makes sense that he would put a customize AI in control (assuming there actually is an AI controlling it, which as far as I know is just speculation).

Because he built it from supplies in a Federation Warship from blueprints stored in a Federation Warship's computers? Why would he Reinvent The Wheel?

A good point, but we really don't know what Langhorne was thinking when he decided to build the OBS. He could very well have wanted to ensure that no one other than himself could access it, and decided that an off-the-shelf AI was too risky. We don't really know how hard it was for the Terran Federation to make an AI, or to alter an existing one. And if Langhorne had any suspicions about Pei Kau-Yung, or even thought that Kau-Yung wouldn't be happy to see Shan-wei orbibital-bombardmented, he certainly wouldn't have set up his trump card to roll over and play nice for any TFN officer who asked it to.

Weird Harold wrote:

InvisibleBison wrote:I see no reason why Langhorne - or whoever controlled the OBS after the War Against the Fallen - couldn't have implemented whatever security precautions he or they felt necessary. And if that is the case, it's likely going to deny access to anyone not on the side of the "Archangels" as of the end of the WAtF, so Nimue Alban would have no access.

If there were any surviving "Archangels" or any other Terran Federation members, you might be right. The OBS was heavily reinforced after Langhorne's death, according to OWL, and there is evidence to suggest the Rakuri was used after the last Adam died. That strongly suggests that the OBS recognized a chain of "surviving command authority." If the OBS recognizes either PICA as a legitimate successor to the command crew, it can be controlled.

The alternative is for MWW to contrive some way the command/adminstrative password is passed down through a millennium or so to some person who doesn't recognized it for what it is.

There is evidence to support that something native-born Safeholdians thought was the Rakurai was used to destroy the SSK's Abbey, yes. We don't know whether that was the OBS or not; after all, how would people who've never heard of advanced technology be able to tell an orbital bombardment from an assault shuttle's weapons fire, or a bomb that had been sneaked into the abbey going off? We don't have any information about how the abbey was destroyed aside from that it was "Rakurai", and to assume that it was the same kind of Rakurai as that which destroyed the Alexandria Enclave is, in my opinion, premature.

But even if the OBS was used to destroy the abbey, that doesn't mean anything about anything now; there was still at least one angel alive at the time. It could be that whatever faction won the War Against the Fallen set up the OBS so that it would obey their team's "angels" and no one else. (That sort of control could have something to do with why they won the war.) But no one on the good guys' team would be able to get past that sort of security, for fairly obvious reasons.

2006davidhh wrote:

cralkhi wrote:I still like my 'shred it with shrapnel' idea. I think you could make solid rockets without electricity, and they wouldn't even have to be orbital - just reach the OBS's altitude suborbitally - the huge relative velocity would only help their destructive power.

I'm sure the OBS has anti-meteor defenses, but there must be a limit to how many objects it can shoot down.

Why? At least in terms of the weight of attack Charis could produce - even using skimmers to solve the getting weapons into orbit/high orbit. And then there is the targeting and guidance problem for attacking the weapon cells. Presumably there are a number of units in the array only some of which are for bombardment.

I see no likelihood of an effective brute force approach.

I was suggesting a very large number of 'dumb' solid rockets, with bursting charges to create huge shrapnel clouds. No guidance or targeting involved beyond launching the rockets in the right direction at the right time.

Dilandu wrote:There is a problem. Firts: the OBS platform may be on the geostationary orbits, or even placed in Lagrange points of Safehold-Langhorne system. The latter is more effective, because in L4 or L5 is stable, and Rakurai platforms could be here almost endlessly.

I don't think the suborbital rocket would work well on the distance of tenth of thousand km. And it became a target for Rakurai laser defense as soon as it leave the atmosphere.

Yeah, it wouldn't work if the OBS were in such distant positions.

Dilandu wrote:Hm, just think about one thing about the Rakurai. According to the map,

http://www.davidweber.net/files/downloa ... oldMap.jpg

The Armageddon Reef is pretty big itself. The ammount of energy, used during bombardment must be... enormous.

How does the destruction of Alexandria (all subcontinent, to be exact) affect the Safehold ecology? Such gigaton-scale bombardment should be pretty bad for ecology. The nuclear winter is possible; the great impact on the ocean waters chemistry also (and so on the planet ecology), and the ammount of dust in atmosphere may just turn the Safehold into another form of Grayson, due to widspread intoxication.

So... was Langhrone really so mad, that he risked the all planet just to settle some scores (and in this case, why his own followers support him?), or something simply gone wrong with their jury-rigged OBS?

I don't think a mere gigaton would cause much global effect. Mt. Tambora was roughly a gigaton, and the volcanic winter effect was only really bad the next year - and most of that is sulfate aerosols in high clouds, so an impact of the same size would probably be far less problematic.

Yeah, it wouldn't work if the OBS were in such distant positions.

And they most probably is. It's more logical for Langhorne and others to place platforms on the Safehold-Langhorne system Lagrange points where they didn't need to compensate the orbital fluctuations for years.

I don't think a mere gigaton would cause much global effect. Mt. Tambora was roughly a gigaton, and the volcanic winter effect was only really bad the next year - and most of that is sulfate aerosols in high clouds, so an impact of the same size would probably be far less problematic.

Yes, but we are talking about SEVERAL blasts; six waves of unknown number of projectile, that carpet-bombed the whole subcontinent. According to the scale on the map, it's more than 9000000 square kilometers! Actually, they leveled the great portion of subcontinent to the sea level. The ammount of matter, throw to the ocean or to the atmosphere must be enormous: the ecologial impact should be devastating.

And even if by some miracle the planetary scale disaster was avoided - what was Langhorne and other think, toying with such weapons? It look... too maniacal even for megalomaniac: after all, Langhorne want to PROTECT the last of humanity, not to whipe it out by himself!

Seems quite likely that something went wrong with the OBS itself. Maybe it is possible that the initial attack could be directed only against Alexandria, but jury-rigged ​​system... exceeded calculations?

Dilandu wrote:Yes, but we are talking about SEVERAL blasts; six waves of unknown number of projectile, that carpet-bombed the whole subcontinent. According to the scale on the map, it's more than 9000000 square kilometers

More like 2,500,000 square kilometers - "the kinetic bombardment had shredded a roughly circular zone over eighteen hundred kilometers across" (OAR)

Actually, they leveled the great portion of subcontinent to the sea level.

It wasn't THAT extreme. The area was already an island in a bay; it's just covered in tons of craters now, and some of the island has been reduced below sea level by the craters - but far less than most of Armageddon Reef or even Rakurai Bay.

"The island upon which that enclave had stood was still there, but it wasn't as large as it had been, and it had been battered into a near-lunar landscape".

So I don't think the craters are necessarily hugely deep - it was probably a huge number of quite small impactors.

And even if by some miracle the planetary scale disaster was avoided - what was Langhorne and other think, toying with such weapons? It look... too maniacal even for megalomaniac: after all, Langhorne want to PROTECT the last of humanity, not to whipe it out by himself?

I think he knew that the weapon wasn't powerful enough to cause a global extinction event.

So I don't think the craters are necessarily hugely deep - it was probably a huge number of quite small impactors.

Hm, the impact on the oceans still should be pretty bad. A large amount of continental material would be thrown in the Sea of Justice and Parker Sea. The ocean water would be contaminated with dust, continental organic... It may not be the great extinction scenario, but it may impact planetary ecology greatly.

P.S. Hm. Just a idea. The Rakurai platforms is solar-powered? So, what if we simply screen the sun for them by some ultralight membrane-screen, placed outside of the laser defense reach?

Dilandu wrote:P.S. Hm. Just a idea. The Rakurai platforms is solar-powered? So, what if we simply screen the sun for them by some ultralight membrane-screen, placed outside of the laser defense reach?

Solar power is just for maintenance. When it actually needs to fire it will activate its fusion plant.