Unexplored sea approaches to the Temple Lands?

Another ship type that Charis could make use of in attacking Zion by sea is an icebreaker.

Dilandu wrote:You need a lot of experience with iron (or even steel) hull ships...

Zakharra wrote:The best time for Charis to attack would be in the spring right after the break up. This would let them put a lot of soldiers and weapons and supplies on the ground right then, at a time when Zion's supply situation is very bad. The Temple's supplies of food and coal would be at its lowest point. and since it's still spring,m before anything can be grown to be brought to Zion, they'd not really be in a situation to withstand a siege for very long.

Also there's no professionally trained troops there, just glorified policemen and Inquisition brute squads (a lot of them would be members in good standing, I am sure). Add in a large population that isn't soldiers and is on the verge of starving, there would be a lot of panic when ICE troops landed and marched on Zion. There's likely be an exodus and when the ICA took the city (as far as I know, Zion itself doesn't have any fortifications ie walls or forts, since no one was supposed to ever DARE think about attacking the seat of holy Mother Church.) they'd be able to move those people out and put on a siege of the Temple itself for 4-6 months, plenty of time to build defenses and bring in a lot more supplies for the inevitable Church counter attack.

This would ease the pressure on the Republic since Chlytahn would have the armies the Church has recalled immediately to crush the Chartisians. It gives much needed time for the Republic, it is a huge blow to the Church's moral and secular authority, especially if they can't drive the Charis army away. And it could very well drive some of the nations supporting the Church to send Charis offers to negotiate if the Charsians aren't driven off. Under the table of course. At the least, even if the Charisians retreat, it would deal a serious blow to the Church's power. Especially if they retreated while in good order.

All the ICA needs to do is hold the city for the summer and fall, denying it to the Church, then when fall comes, possibly leave and let those still left in the Temple starve since there would have been no time or ability to bring in any supplies for the upcoming winter. Even if the ICA left for the winter, it would be very very hard for the Church to get any needful amount of food and coal in to the Temple during the winter. Then the next winter, the ICA might be able to repeat its actions. But I think the Temple would surrender before the fall came. Starvation.

You mean like OWL's database?

Dilandu wrote:

You mean like OWL's database?

The database wouldn't help with the fact that Charis haven't got skilled workers with adequate level of expirience to do something. Honestly, i think that even the triple-expansion steam engine is a little too far for the workers virtually from the 14-15 century.

dwileye13 wrote:
I think you give our Safeholders to little credit. Low Tech does not mean Stupid or incompetant. Incredible things were done even 2000 years ago. Materials and Mechanical advantage are the only things that hold back engineers. i.e. give me a bigger and stronger lever and see what I can do!

Philip Stanley wrote:The are two aspects of a naval attack on the Temple that I haven't seen discussed, so I thought I'd bring them up now:

1) The Temple is separated from the city of Zion by the Zion River. This is very clear from the Safehold map (check it out). This would make it relatively easy to isolate it from the city, or any other aid from the east, by seizing the crossings.

2) For that matter, what kind of crossings are there across the river anyway? This is a MAJOR river; it is the outlet of Lake Pei and the Lake Pei watershed. The average annual water flow must be huge. Also, in the spring, around April when the ice breaks up, all of the winter accumulation of snow and ice will be melting and flowing north in the river as well. Given the size of the river I doubt that there is any bridge that could survive the spring breakup. This means that any communication between the Temple and points East will only be by ferry boat, and considering the water/ice flowing in the river in the spring it's likely that ferry service will be suspended during April/May.

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the Temple, built by the Ark crew, is probably too strong to be broken into using anything the Charisian's could come up with. It could, however be surrounded and isolated from any contact with the outside by an invasion force, preventing any contact whatsoever. (If it has a signal tower, that could be destroyed by artillery fire) This would leave the AoG and the part of Safehold controlled by the Temple without direction or control for the summer months (the invasion force would have to withdraw before the autumn freeze). Think what could be accomplished by the Reformers everywhere if the Temple was cut off, even temporarily.

Philip Stanley

Philip Stanley wrote:The are two aspects of a naval attack on the Temple that I haven't seen discussed, so I thought I'd bring them up now:

1) The Temple is separated from the city of Zion by the Zion River. This is very clear from the Safehold map (check it out). This would make it relatively easy to isolate it from the city, or any other aid from the east, by seizing the crossings.

2) For that matter, what kind of crossings are there across the river anyway? This is a MAJOR river; it is the outlet of Lake Pei and the Lake Pei watershed. The average annual water flow must be huge. Also, in the spring, around April when the ice breaks up, all of the winter accumulation of snow and ice will be melting and flowing north in the river as well. Given the size of the river I doubt that there is any bridge that could survive the spring breakup. This means that any communication between the Temple and points East will only be by ferry boat, and considering the water/ice flowing in the river in the spring it's likely that ferry service will be suspended during April/May.

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the Temple, built by the Ark crew, is probably too strong to be broken into using anything the Charisian's could come up with. It could, however be surrounded and isolated from any contact with the outside by an invasion force, preventing any contact whatsoever. (If it has a signal tower, that could be destroyed by artillery fire) This would leave the AoG and the part of Safehold controlled by the Temple without direction or control for the summer months (the invasion force would have to withdraw before the autumn freeze). Think what could be accomplished by the Reformers everywhere if the Temple was cut off, even temporarily.

Philip Stanley

evilauthor wrote:

Philip Stanley wrote:The are two aspects of a naval attack on the Temple that I haven't seen discussed, so I thought I'd bring them up now:

1) The Temple is separated from the city of Zion by the Zion River. This is very clear from the Safehold map (check it out). This would make it relatively easy to isolate it from the city, or any other aid from the east, by seizing the crossings.

2) For that matter, what kind of crossings are there across the river anyway? This is a MAJOR river; it is the outlet of Lake Pei and the Lake Pei watershed. The average annual water flow must be huge. Also, in the spring, around April when the ice breaks up, all of the winter accumulation of snow and ice will be melting and flowing north in the river as well. Given the size of the river I doubt that there is any bridge that could survive the spring breakup. This means that any communication between the Temple and points East will only be by ferry boat, and considering the water/ice flowing in the river in the spring it's likely that ferry service will be suspended during April/May.

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the Temple, built by the Ark crew, is probably too strong to be broken into using anything the Charisian's could come up with. It could, however be surrounded and isolated from any contact with the outside by an invasion force, preventing any contact whatsoever. (If it has a signal tower, that could be destroyed by artillery fire) This would leave the AoG and the part of Safehold controlled by the Temple without direction or control for the summer months (the invasion force would have to withdraw before the autumn freeze). Think what could be accomplished by the Reformers everywhere if the Temple was cut off, even temporarily.

Philip Stanley

Where are these maps? I can't find any that's sufficiently clear for me to see what you're talking about.

Also, I always got the impression that the Temple was entirely surrounded by Zion. The river was never mentioned in text, so there could well be an Archangel made bridge spanning the river. After all, if the river never gets mentioned in the text, why would any bridges?

Pilgrims gotta get to the Temple somehow.

Also, any Lake Pei docks servicing the Temple strikes me as being likely on the Temple side of the river. After all, it wouldn't make any sense to land cargo crossing Lake Pei on the other side of the river only to load it into river crossing ferries again, especially in the early days when Zion was just starting out.

IOW, I don't think taking the river alone will cut the Temple off entirely from outside support.