Unexplored sea approaches to the Temple Lands?

Dilandu wrote:The air is a lesser problem than propulsion, but still a problem. How many compressed air do you planned to obtain?

That would depend on what recycling/cleansing they combined storage with. With efficient CO2 scrubbing, only a moderate amount of O2 is required to maintain breathability. If they go with an "Open System" like the original SCUBA, then they'll need a LOT of canned air.

n7axw wrote:I guess I think that the amphibious landing would work better. You don't do it at a time when the ice would be a factor. In fact you don't do it while there are still major enemy armies left in the field to come up your backside.

I think you're probably right. There are too many technical difficulties to overcome for an under-ice transit. Submersibles would still be useful in avoiding coast watchers and notice by civilian traffic. Traversing Hsing-wu's Passage without being noticed and the Temple being warned, is one of the main problems with an amphibious attack of Zion.

The best time for Charis to attack would be in the spring right after the break up. This would let them put a lot of soldiers and weapons and supplies on the ground right then, at a time when Zion's supply situation is very bad. The Temple's supplies of food and coal would be at its lowest point. and since it's still spring,m before anything can be grown to be brought to Zion, they'd not really be in a situation to withstand a siege for very long.

Also there's no professionally trained troops there, just glorified policemen and Inquisition brute squads (a lot of them would be members in good standing, I am sure). Add in a large population that isn't soldiers and is on the verge of starving, there would be a lot of panic when ICE troops landed and marched on Zion. There's likely be an exodus and when the ICA took the city (as far as I know, Zion itself doesn't have any fortifications ie walls or forts, since no one was supposed to ever DARE think about attacking the seat of holy Mother Church.) they'd be able to move those people out and put on a siege of the Temple itself for 4-6 months, plenty of time to build defenses and bring in a lot more supplies for the inevitable Church counter attack.

This would ease the pressure on the Republic since Chlytahn would have the armies the Church has recalled immediately to crush the Chartisians. It gives much needed time for the Republic, it is a huge blow to the Church's moral and secular authority, especially if they can't drive the Charis army away. And it could very well drive some of the nations supporting the Church to send Charis offers to negotiate if the Charsians aren't driven off. Under the table of course. At the least, even if the Charisians retreat, it would deal a serious blow to the Church's power. Especially if they retreated while in good order.

All the ICA needs to do is hold the city for the summer and fall, denying it to the Church, then when fall comes, possibly leave and let those still left in the Temple starve since there would have been no time or ability to bring in any supplies for the upcoming winter. Even if the ICA left for the winter, it would be very very hard for the Church to get any needful amount of food and coal in to the Temple during the winter. Then the next winter, the ICA might be able to repeat its actions. But I think the Temple would surrender before the fall came. Starvation.

Dilandu wrote:

I would expect Charis to do better than pedal-power for a submersible and better than a warning candle for dealing with CO2 build-up.

Without electric power? Be serious; maximum you could obtain for propulsion is some sort of air-indepentend thermal engine based on some chemical reaction to produce heat, and maximum you could arm it is a pneumatic gun.

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

Modern subs. With nuclear reactors and thousands of tonns of ultra-hard hull. Not something that Charis could obtain untils the "Rakurai" is in service.

And even modern subs can't put ashore a significant land force of any size. The ones we have that deploy troops deploy what? A couple dozen commandos at most? Against a force that small, even Temple "police" could hold off an attack that small.

Or you get a bunch of sniped guardsmen and not much else. They're certainly not big enough to take and occupy a hostile city, or even just the Temple.

And of course, there's no textev that Charis is even THINKING about submarines, let along solved all the non-trivial problems of making a working one.

They just discovered smokeless powder a couple books back and haven't even yet converted entirely to smokeless ammo, and that's with a technology they're already well familiar with. They're just starting to field ironclads in significant numbers even though they already rule the seas. What do they need subs for?

Frankly, if Charis wants to attack via a frozen Hsing-Wu's passage, they're better off making their own iceboats instead of making subs.

Well, the submarines acutally were invented a long time before ironclads of smokeless powder, but you are right. The Charis didn't have any particular need for submarines, at least now.

If they want, they probably could build a "Holland"-type submarine, propelled with steam machines on surface and chemical thermal engine (for example, Stirling engine, heated by some sort of chemical oxygenless reaction) underwater, and armed with pneumatic gun. It may even be effective, in the mostly narrow seas of Safehold, but the only reason they could have to mass-produce sobmarines - is the Church somehow be able to compete with Charis battleships at least in coastal waters.

It is more possible that the Curch may try to advance with some sort of primitive submarine with manual or steam engine, at least for coastal defense. It wouldn't be very practical, but it would undoubtly make Charis naval operation more difficult.

evilauthor wrote:
Without electric power? Be serious; maximum you could obtain for propulsion is some sort of air-indepentend thermal engine based on some chemical reaction to produce heat, and maximum you could arm it is a pneumatic gun.

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

Modern subs. With nuclear reactors and thousands of tonns of ultra-hard hull. Not something that Charis could obtain untils the "Rakurai" is in service.

And even modern subs can't put ashore a significant land force of any size. The ones we have that deploy troops deploy what? A couple dozen commandos at most? Against a force that small, even Temple "police" could hold off an attack that small.

Or you get a bunch of sniped guardsmen and not much else. They're certainly not big enough to take and occupy a hostile city, or even just the Temple.

And of course, there's no textev that Charis is even THINKING about submarines, let along solved all the non-trivial problems of making a working one.

They just discovered smokeless powder a couple books back and haven't even yet converted entirely to smokeless ammo, and that's with a technology they're already well familiar with. They're just starting to field ironclads in significant numbers even though they already rule the seas. What do they need subs for?

Frankly, if Charis wants to attack via a frozen Hsing-Wu's passage, they're better off making their own iceboats instead of making subs.[/quote]


That's also assuming the sea dragons and krakon don't sink the subs either. The sea life on Safehold is several times more dangerous than Terran sea life.

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think your logic works better if you isolate Zion from the temple. Enter with your force into Zion and surround the temple itself rather than the city with your lines about a quarter to half mile from the perimeter of the temple. Evacuate the city itself and wait for the denizens of the temple to wave a white flag or starve.

Don

That is exactly what you would have to do since any food in the city would immediately be seized for the temple. Until recently, the temple had demonstrated every winter exactly how compassionate they were and I can only think that they would trevett to that mode should the city be placed under siege.

And the temple itself is build by the Archangels themselves, so I suspect it would be strong enough to withstand most forms of conventional siege weaponry if it has any type of lockdown mode. I imagine the temple's front entrance door itself will be as strong as a blast door.

If a small group of defenders and the G04 is ruthless enough to abandon the city itself and decide to seal themselves in the temple with months of supplies, I think any Charisian army going to have a hard time punching their way into the temple before the Church armies come to lift the siege of Zion (Unless Merlin decides to fly in on his skimmer and blast the temple front door open with advance weaponry).

Hi Don,

I think you're quite right regarding the temple lands being almost defenseless.

Of course the landing site is critical, but how far up the Zion River can they go with their steam powered landing craft [from HFaF or MTaT]?

From the updated MTaT map, the temple is less than 70 miles from a landing just east of Port Harbor while the Zion River itself is only about 70 miles long, a distance easily covered in a single night, and not a problem with the right pilots, either a couple of seijins or from the SSK etc.

I expect that Symkyn, once he finishes Kaitswyrth by March or early April, and any Harchong quarter-Army Group center that tries to replace him crossing Sabana, Faralas, and Jhurlahnk to reach the Charayn Canal then down the Daivyn River by May thanks to EHM and a batch of ironclads as I've described before.

Symkyn would then be free to move north to support BGV after he's dealt with Wyrshym to handle the Harchong quarter-Army group North, possibly cutting it off from the Langhorne Canal [Symkyn] while BGV might fence with its vanguard until he gets enough Katusha type rockets up the canal [around a barge load] to effectively terrorize whoever isn't killed etc, just as the American militia was shocked and terrorized at Bladensburg by far inferior rockets.

Who knows, perhaps after 3 or more nights with no sleep due to BGV's nightly bombardments, including the new 6" angles etc; the Harchong might seek to surrender just to get some sleep, NTM some food.

This could put BGV near Spinefish Bay in June, and around 2075 miles from the entrance to Temple Bay assuming the map distances are halved at 60 degrees latitude as they should be, for just ~10 days travel at 8mph/day when the invasion fleet could be well out of sight of Haven's north coast.

Light Houses or observation towers would have to be around 120' high to cover the middle of the entrance to Temple Bay [if they're not taken by Merlin or scout snipers etc], with another 825 miles [4 days] to the Zion River, for 2900 miles from Spinefish Bay, ie less than 3 5days, arriving late June or early July and having about 3 months to take Zion and the temple [getting Paityr and possibly Merlin inside the temple being the whole point] while getting ready for the winter to come.


BGV's 70,000 man army [assuming no additional RSA troops] would need some 21,000 tons of supplies for 200 days through the winter or 15 1400 ton galleons [Charisian average 1300+ tons], while 16,000 horses at 30 pounds of fodder per day [leaving aside they're High Hallows] would be another 48,000 tons or 37 1300 ton galleons, for at least 52 unloading at the end of summer [ie less than 2% of the EoC's merchant galleons], others landing half that during the ~100 days of summer.

Being able to land such a force within a day or two of the Temple and Zion ought to be a shock, with all the positive results for the inner circle, including lots of inquisitor targets.

I don't think the temple has that much food stored, given how fresh it always seems to be [does it have built in greenhouses?], so a month's siege might be all that's needed to get Clyntahn tossed out, 50 days on the outside.

Who knows, watching his inquisitors run away from the infidels might send Clyntahn off before they throw him out.

L

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:*quote="n7axw"*I think your logic works better if you isolate Zion from the temple. Enter with your force into Zion and surround the temple itself rather than the city with your lines about a quarter to half mile from the perimeter of the temple. Evacuate the city itself and wait for the denizens of the temple to wave a white flag or starve.

Don*quote*

That is exactly what you would have to do since any food in the city would immediately be seized for the temple. Until recently, the temple had demonstrated every winter exactly how compassionate they were and I can only think that they would trevett to that mode should the city be placed under siege.

It would all depend on how fast the Alliance force could move from their landing. The city itself is pretty much undefended since Clytahn decided he didn't want rival guard forces around in significant numbers. So rather than fighting their way in, it would be a matter of moving in and cutting off the city from the temple itself. I could visualize the inquisition as having very little time to confiscate food before the hammer came down.

The mentality is that it is inconceivable that Zion could be attacked to start with. So chances are there will be no effective preparation against it.

Don

Hi Weird Harold,

The 'successful' Hunley crew was the third it killed, the other two in practice dives, so it was forbidden to dive for month's, even when they collected another volunteer crew, and however successful it may have been it wasn't emulated despite the CSA's situation getting far worse by the month.

Electricity has been aboard submarines for almost 150 years, doing without it almost makes it suicidal, and as other posters have noted trying to penetrate Hsing-wu's passage in wintertime on a planet much colder than Earth only makes the dangers of the depth's and navigation required more emphatic.

Steam powered submersible's fared poorly before Holland's success, and still suffered far worse accident rates than IC powered, which is why they were abandoned after WWI.

Given the vast diversion of effort into all the technologies a successful submarine would require, I don't see the return for the ICN for perhaps a decade at best, ie the odds for success are much better much later, if its needed at all before the angels return.

Because even the shallowest hint that the ICN was working on any kind of submersible would encourage all its enemies to start their own efforts.

L

Weird Harold wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:A few thoughts.

One, with the limits of technology on Safehold, a submersible could easily be a death trap. IIRC the CSA submersible crew died after they successful their mission.

The crew of the CSS Hunley died of unknown causes, but are presumed to have suffered some sort of damage from proximity to the spar torpedo used in the attack

I would expect Charis to do better than pedal-power for a submersible and better than a warning candle for dealing with CO2 build-up.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Two, the ice on Lake Pei, south of Zion, was thick enough for ice boats to travel on it. Just how thick would the ice be on Hsing-Wu's Passage? Would the submersible crew be able to break though the ice to launch their attack at Zion?

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Three, Hsing-Wu's Passage isn't a short length. Could a submersible be able to safely travel the entire length? Would the crew be able to break though the ice to get additional air?

See above: Even if it isn't advisable for security reasons, there shouldn't be any need for additional air; Charis has a fairly modern peneumatics capability and should be able to provide pressurized air for breathing over long periods.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Four, without being able to surface (due to the ice) to get their bearings, how would the submersible crew be able to navigate?

A Charis-tech submersible would have to have view-ports and some means of lighting to travel under the ice. View-ports are no big problem, lighting might be.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Five, how many people could the submersible carry? How many people would be needed to carry out the attack?

How many it could carry would depend on how many it is designed to carry. I would WAG a submersible optimized to deliver a light infantry company with a week's supplies -- call it 150 bodies including crew. It wouldn't make sense to put the entire landing party in one submersible, so multiple boats would be used regardless of individual capacity

DrakBibliophile wrote:In short, for the submersible attack to be successful, it seems that it would require high technology. The crew would have to be Inner Circle and that would limit the number involved.

The only high-tech that would be really useful would be navigation under the ice and that only requires one or two inner circle types to make command decisions.

A Pneumatic powered submersible is easily possible; one with the range/endurance to travel Hsing-Wu's Passage under the ice is more difficult, but not entirely impossible. Some propulsion other than pneumatic is also possible -- even pedal power once Oxygen and CO2 limitations are conquered.

lyonheart wrote:The 'successful' Hunley crew was the third it killed, the other two in practice dives, so it was forbidden to dive for month's, even when they collected another volunteer crew, and however successful it may have been it wasn't emulated despite the CSA's situation getting far worse by the month.

The main problem with the CSS Hunley was it had no provision for CO2 scrubbing and/or O2 replacement. A problem any hypothetical Charisian submersible wouldn't have thanks to OWL and Merlin.

Most of the objections to an ICN submersible seem to be based on a vision of submersibles as armed warships that don't have room for amphibious forces. That isn't what I proposed; I proposed an "unarmed stealth troop transport." I accept that an under-ice mission is probably not feasible, but Charis could still use ships that could traverse Hsing-Wu's passage without being reported a couple of thousand miles before they reach their destination.

Another ship type that Charis could make use of in attacking Zion by sea is an icebreaker. Icebreakers would allow an attack via the Northern Passage month ahead of any prediction of the passage clearing enough for ships. With Steam Powered Ironclads Charis already has most of the technical details of icebreakers, they just need to add thicker bows and propeller protection.

The 'successful' Hunley crew was the third it killed, the other two in practice dives, so it was forbidden to dive for month's, even when they collected another volunteer crew, and however successful it may have been it wasn't emulated despite the CSA's situation getting far worse by the month.

Hi, Lionheart!

Well, IMHO the "Fenian Ram" was the first submarine that could be usefull under realistic conditions. But i must agree: it's not wise for Charis to encourage his enemies for any submarine works.