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War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advance?

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War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advance?
Post by Tim   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:55 am

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On the Dohlar and Destabilization thread n7axw and I had the below exchange. That got me to asking the questions: What is the wars final objective? and Which front will be the main axis's of advance? I have not seen those questions asked or opined on.

From the reading it sounds like the final objective is to get into the Temple before something wakes up.

The situation is fluid right. The Allies have just secured their major fronts. But a lot of planning and possibly years of constructing the facilities are needed to move and resupply the main effort.

In a war you always have finite number of men and supplies to achieve final victory in the shortest amount of time and the least cost of live and treasure. So does the Alliance really need to spend their resources on an expanded Southern Front? Will the greater return on the effort expended be from trying to knock out Dohlar or using the men and material on other fronts?

Which of the three axis's of advance will the Alliance select to be their war winning strategy?. In my opinion an advance out of the Southern Front would be more costly and take more time. So if the Southern Front is not the main axis's of advance troops and material should be transferred out after stabilizing the south.

n7axw wrote:
Tim wrote:
The ultimate goal is to get into the Temple in Zion. The war winning assault on Zion can not realistically be launched from The Southern Front. It will either be an amphibious and land advance along the Hsing-wu's Passage or an assault through The Border States from the Central Front.


You have a very valid point here, but given the current expansion of Siddarmark's army, the alliance is going to be able to recoup its combat losses quicker than you seem to be allowing for.

A question in my own mind is what happens when EOC/RSA forces move far enough west toward Howard and Dohlar to start flanking the Harchongese from the south. It should make their supply routes less secure, don't you think? Also knocking Dohlar and Desnair out of the war before confronting the Harchongese would be highly desirable, at bare minimum.

Don
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:37 am

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Er, the real main goal of war is to destroy the Church control over technology. So, the best possible outcome for this is the prolonged cold-war scenario with unlimited arm race. The "Charis rule the world" scenario isn't stagnation-proof, so it would be logical for Merlin to guarantee the existence of a counterpart.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: War final objective?-Snerks-
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:06 pm

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The goal of this phase of war is to eliminate the threat of the OBS. Absent that threat, all the CoGA has is their ability to persuade not compell obediance to the proscriptions. The awareness of the Sleepers has complicated the thrust straight to Zion. Will those Sleepers awake when the Allies approach Zion?

Taking that into account, I believe Dilandu has the least risky approach pending more information. If the Allies take Silkiah and control the Salthar Canal, Howard is left on its own. Dohlar might be taken by using a raiding strategy. Force the RDA into fortified cities while the ICA destroys Dohlar's ability to resuply by raiding the country side. Couple that with a steady diet of artillery, mortars and snipers into the fortification and the RDA's moral will crumble soon enough. I suspect before the morale crumbles totally, Ahlvarez and/or Thirsk will organize a surrender. Part of the surrender terms will include ICN naval bases in the Gulf of Dohlar.

Once Dohlar is done and Harchong and the Temple Lands are left to their own devices, The jihadist nations MUST revamp their entire society and industry in order to continue their holy war. If they sue for peace or a cease fire in place at that point, I believe Charis and Siddermark will accept. They will see their own forces growing more powerful much more quickly than the CoGA's. How long that cease fire will last is anyone's guess. I further suspect that the Allies will press their negotiations more vigerously as their advantage increases. At some point the CoGA either capitulates or resumes the war at a time most advantageous for the allies and/or when the Sleeper awakens.
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Re: War final objective?-Snerks-
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:32 pm

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Will those Sleepers awake when the Allies approach Zion?


Well, considering it all, the Archangels should at least take into account the possibility of invasion or some internal conflict to Zion and Temple in distant future. So... it would be logical to have at least SOME defense systems to deal with potential invaders. Presumably non-lethal type: something like "the true miracle of God itself", that completely demoralized the invader. After all, even the simple-minded AI of RAPIER type should be able to impersonate Archangels on holograms or something...
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:39 pm

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My IMHO - that the Zion and Temple should not be invaded by open military force, but infiltrated by some team of agents, that be able to determine the degree of possible threat. The direct invasion is complicated due to:

- The possibility of some overwhelming reaction by Tempe automatic or sleeres themselves.

- Purely military difficulty of attack on the such isolated and possibly ultimatedly defended position

- The moral and religious aspects; the heretics, that conquered Dohlar and demanded peace threaty and contribution from the secular rulers of the Temple Land is the one thing. The heretics, that attacked Zion and Temple itself - is the other one.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:07 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Er, the real main goal of war is to destroy the Church control over technology. So, the best possible outcome for this is the prolonged cold-war scenario with unlimited arm race. The "Charis rule the world" scenario isn't stagnation-proof, so it would be logical for Merlin to guarantee the existence of a counterpart.


That is Merlin's goal. Cayleb's goal is to secure the Empire from attack. Mikael's goal is to reform the COGA and break the coercive power of the inquistion, preparing for the time when the full truth can be told. The protector's goal is to evict the armies that invaded his country, destroy the church' s ability to threaten Siddarmark again and restore domestic tranquility in his country.

Please note that while all of these goals overlap, none of them are identical. There is enough shared in common, however to allow all the interested parties to cooperate. Such is the nature of alliances, whether of individuals or nations.

All of these goals require the defeat of the Temple and the destruction of its military and political power. The only serious question here is the safest, most economical way to go about it.

Here is my own take on how that might be accomplished. An amphibious op has much to commend it. In so far as we are aware, there are no significant military forces near Zion, so it is possible that a modest sized force would suffice, but only after the major armies in the field are dealt with so that they wouldn't be available to come up the invasion force's backside.

Here is what I think needs to be done. Dohlar needs to be completely knocked out of the war, invaded and temporarily occupied to prevent them from rebuilding until the war is over. Howard can be rendered impotent simply by completing its isolation. After Dohlar and Howard are are dealt with, the Alliance's southern flank is secured, freeing up the Alliance to deal with the Harchonese. However that is accomplished, once that army is gone, there is no need to invade Harchong since it will no longer be able project power beyond its borders.

As for the amphibious op, I think that the worry about the possibility of defences is well taken. So, as far as possible, evacuate the civilians from Zion and then starve out the temple rather than trying to overrun it. Or maybe Duchairan's plot will have succeeded putting rational people in control to negotiate a surrender. Who knows? [shrug]

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by Tim   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:37 pm

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Did not Charis learn from the Weslyne artifact that a sleeper, or something, was going to awake under the Temple? And that it would occur sooner then they had though? Which is why I assumed the objective was Zion and the Temple with time being a factor.

Unless of course Charis think's it is fine for an unknown entity, who is associated in some way with making the current Church, to reappear to adjudicate the current troubles.

So I think the Emperor has to share at least this information with his Allies if he has not yet.
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by Direwolf18   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:41 pm

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As it stands I would say time would be on the Allies side except for the fact that the OBS is there AND the sleeper is there. If it was one or the other it would be a situation that could be handled. Not easily for sure, but doable. Together is where things get tricky. If they set off an alert and the sleeper wakes up, he could use the OBS to turn Tellesberg, Cheyrath, Siddimark City, Delthak, and Manchyr into smoking craters in a matter of minutes. That would be the end of that. Also acording to Father Paiytyr and the image of his great great etc grandad Schueler, someone is going to be waking up in what... a decade? I have my shoes on so I cant count with my toes... That would probably be the same end result if the platform is still operational. No one is going to argue with an archangels divine authority after he snuffs out a few million people.

If the OBS was out of the picture then the sleeper could be dealt with if the Church of Charis is given enough time to shore up support to carry it through the great reveal. On the same note, if the sleeper was out of the picture, Merlins original plan of getting up to electricity while he tinkers with a plan b to take the thing down would be entirely valid.
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:44 pm

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Direwolf18 wrote:As it stands I would say time would be on the Allies side except for the fact that the OBS is there AND the sleeper is there. If it was one or the other it would be a situation that could be handled. Not easily for sure, but doable. Together is where things get tricky. If they set off an alert and the sleeper wakes up, he could use the OBS to turn Tellesberg, Cheyrath, Siddimark City, Delthak, and Manchyr into smoking craters in a matter of minutes. That would be the end of that. Also acording to Father Paiytyr and the image of his great great etc grandad Schueler, someone is going to be waking up in what... a decade? I have my shoes on so I cant count with my toes... That would probably be the same end result if the platform is still operational. No one is going to argue with an archangels divine authority after he snuffs out a few million people.

If the OBS was out of the picture then the sleeper could be dealt with if the Church of Charis is given enough time to shore up support to carry it through the great reveal. On the same note, if the sleeper was out of the picture, Merlins original plan of getting up to electricity while he tinkers with a plan b to take the thing down would be entirely valid.


The difficulty here is that we really don't know where the control points are for either the sleeper or the OBS. All we know from the hologram is that if soneone goes to the basement of the temple, inserts the key to access the computer and calls for help, help will be forthcoming. But this is something that can only done once at a time of the church's deepest need. Then we are told that the archangels will check back in a thousand years to see if God's plan is still on track. This much we learned from Father Paityr.

But where is the control point for the OBS? Is it under the temple? That does seem likely. But it is still possible that Langhorne's flagship wasn't dumped into the sun after all and that it will be returning with both control point and sleepers on board. For that matter what are the sleepers? They can't be actual people preserved in kryou...its been too long for that. So what you have left are AIs set to wake up on a timer the way Nimue did.

Dunno... it seems to me that allowing the sleepers to awaken on their own terms would be very dangerous and should be avoided if possible. Getting someone into the basement of the temple with the key to access the computer should be a very strong priority if no other reason than to see if some of these questions can be answered.

Just a closing comment on the OBS. I don't think it is set to respond on automatic. It has to be told what to do. If it had been on automatic, it should have responded to the introduction of steam on those islands where Merlin conducted his test at the beginning of HFAF. Also, the destruction of the SSK's original convent implies exercise of will. What the sisters had done was to irritate the powers that be by refusing to disband. The good sisters certainly weren't messing around with the presciptions, at any rate.

Just my guess. Well all have to wait and see.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advan
Post by InvisibleBison   » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:41 pm

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n7axw wrote:Also, the destruction of the SSK's original convent implies exercise of will. What the sisters had done was to irritate the powers that be by refusing to disband. The good sisters certainly weren't messing around with the presciptions, at any rate.



Just a minor quibble with your point - we don't know the convent was destroyed by the OBS. Nynian said it was "Rakurai", but since she doesn't know the real history, she wouldn't be able to differentiate between an OBS strike and, say, an "angel" in an assault shuttle frying the convent.
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