Birth control on Safehold?

jgnfld wrote:Not trying to start a discussion, but most historical sources I've read posit easy access to abortion for the case of prostitutes in the ancient world, at least.

Abortion definitely was known in classical times, I remember reading that the very early Christians (first couple of centuries) taught against it, which means they definitely knew it existed.

cralkhi wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Not trying to start a discussion, but most historical sources I've read posit easy access to abortion for the case of prostitutes in the ancient world, at least.

Abortion definitely was known in classical times, I remember reading that the very early Christians (first couple of centuries) taught against it, which means they definitely knew it existed.

I would imagine they do have birth control and have had it since the "Creation". I would also imagine that it's a proscription drug that is dispensed by the Pasqualite nuns and priests under specific guidelines for when it is acceptable to dispense - Things like "working girls", mothers of already large broods and the anticipated need that at some point the population growth rate will need be stopped since overpopulation is one of the historical causes for war (and wars risk the sort of technological advancements we've seen in this war). That and of course the limitation of available resources despite any genetic engineered crops.

I'd also point out that MWW has stated that the Holy Writ contains specific provisions that unequivocally ban racism in any form. This leads me to think that other sorts of discrimination would also be condemned. And while Safehold is largely a male dominated society, that state of affairs emerged as a result of the labor-intensive economy that favors those with greater physical strength. And I also think that homosexuality would not be condemned either (though Clyntahn once called Earl Tartarian Earl Anvil Rock's "catamite" - but I'd guess that the sexual abuse of minors would be roundly condemned in the Holy Writ).

The reason I mention this is because the type of sexual puritanism that is typical of primitive societies seems to be absent on Safehold. Religious prohibitions against prostitution and premarital sex tend to develop in societies without effective birth control and where men are the economic linchpin. Those sort of societies have a collective interest in preventing the conception of children who have no legally acknowledged fathers (or at least male providers) who will inevitably become an economic burden on their mothers' families or be abandoned outright. And in those sort of societies, the easiest way a man can evade responsibility is by claiming that his wife was unfaithful and the children aren't his or else refuse to acknowledge a child conceived with a "working girl" or someone known for her "promiscuity". And when you add inheritance, politics and wealth you get a vested interest to favor honorably conceived, "legitimate" children over bastard born children.

Given the absence of the sort of denigration of women as "sinful" objects of desire and lust who brought about original sin (as taught by Christians centuries ago) and given the lack of scandal whenever a betrothed couple arrives at their wedding day with a child or two I think that sex itself is not treated as a sin in and of itself. There are some limits to propriety (like not bedding your prostitutes in the sacred confines of the Temple) but otherwise I'm getting the sense that even prostitution is legal. And for that to happen, you would either have to eliminate the problem of an excess of illegitimate children or else put in places laws that make it impossible for men to evade their familial responsibilities. The latter would be difficult to institute effectively and church orphanages would eventually be overrun with fatherless children waiting for adoption. So I think they do have contraceptives.

On sexual morals, just before he takes his unfortunate tumble on Ahnzhelyk's steps in OAR (pb P261) Archbishop Dynnys reflects, 'While the Holy Writ recognised that human beings were fallible, and that not all of them would seek the approval of Mother Church's clergy upon their ... relationships, it was quite strict on the subject of fornication and infidelity'

The reason pregnant brides don't shock, provided the conception took place during the betrothal, is not that sex outside marriage is OK but that betrothed couples are 'as good as' married already, since betrothal has a strong and established legal status.

On birth control, I think there must be something since we have seen very few large families, even if it is just a strong injunction against having more kids than you can care for and an explanation of the rhythm method.

Just to point out that there is a good arguement for the original meaning of fornication to be sex with an unlicensed prostitute.

Randomiser wrote:On birth control, I think there must be something since we have seen very few large families, even if it is just a strong injunction against having more kids than you can care for and an explanation of the rhythm method.

I agree, or abortion is accepted practice, which is not something I would expect from someone like Langhorne.

On the other hand, there is Hector family (dont remember the exact number, at least 6 I think) and most the families we heard of have 2 or more.

The rate of healthy borns per woman may be high but in a non industrial society like this, it is pretty sure there is a fair number of accidental deaths as well as diseases that the low tech good medecine is not capable to handle. So this high rate is needed to handle the losses.

alj_sf wrote:
I agree, or abortion is accepted practice, which is not something I would expect from someone like Langhorne.

Let us not forget, that Laghorne was a megalomaniac but not a fool. His goal was to create a religious model that can exist long as possible. Logically, he had to avoid the mistakes of many "natural" religions,that too actively intervene in the human's private life - for not to create unnecessary friction in the system.

And I also think that homosexuality would not be condemned either (though Clyntahn once called Earl Tartarian Earl Anvil Rock's "catamite" - but I'd guess that the sexual abuse of minors would be roundly condemned in the Holy Writ).

On the part of the Church would be wise to simply not affect the issue at all, not giving him any moral evaluation. Again, in order to avoid unnecessary controversy.

There was great discussion when Cayleb and Sharley had sex after her assasination attempt what would happen if she became pregnant.
I think RFC commented it, that people of Safehold know about safe sex or something like that.
Maybe somebody could find that post.

Regading the question of over-population and the inability to sustain the population: Malthus began writing about that in the 18th century, and he was by no means the first to do so. Safehold still has areas that are un-productive that can farmed. there are vast opportunities for improvement of methods that do not rely on technological advances (Harchong). Technological advances that do not violate the proscriptions (cotton gin, and its adaptation to steel-thistle silk) will also free up additional labor that can then be turned to additional food production.
Let's assume that Safehold does reach its capacity for production. Then we start talking about the introduction of Malthusian Catastrophes. If farmland becomes rare, empires will go to war over it, this causes death on a massive scale due to nature of the warfare they are able to engage in (general warfare without the capability of precision strikes). The general nature of the warfare causes massive food shortages, which cause famine and a temporary drop in the birth rate. A few years after the wars and famine the population begins to tick back up, proablaby taking several generations before coming up agains the next Malthusian limit, assuming nothing has changed in food production techiques or technology. We have seen that even the anti-technology nature of the church still gives way to necessity (or a sufficiently large bribe), so there is still room for improvement, just a much slower rate than what we are experiencing on earth in the modern day.

As to the question of birth control, even if there are not modern methods, herbalist have known for centuries that compounds of certain herbs will induce miscarriage, or even prevent preganancy by making the body inhospitable to a developing fetus. My guess would be that the Pasquelates do know some of these compounds but do not generally distribute them because to do so would contradict Langhorne's command to "be fruitful and multiply".

Annachie wrote:Just to point out that there is a good arguement for the original meaning of fornication to be sex with an unlicensed prostitute.

That might possibly be so, but it hasn't been used that way for a very long time. It's distinct special pleading to suggest RFC has used it in an archaic way.

I doubt that there is any form of BC except for maybe timing.

From my reading of the text the original colonist were probably selected with a high probability of multiple birth pregnancies.

IIRC Hektor Alpin has two sets of twin siblings and his father is a twin. The Conkland family has a set of fraternal twins. And IIRC the CO of the privateer Loyal Son is the Uncle to two sets of twins.