Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Just remember that something has to be relatively near the missile to provide fire control. In the case of Hancock that was Sarnow's BCs (and escorts) which ran a course past the pods and launched and controlled them then.

And for system defense pods there's fire control relays, nodes, or stations/forts scattered about to control them.



But if you just rolled some off the back of an SD(P) or ammo ship and left them there alone they wouldn't be much use once you're more than a light minutes or so away. That's not necessarily a show stopper, just another factor to consider when looking to pull this trick off.

Forgive me, do, for being so far behind the learning curve for hardware, but I tawt I taw textev stating that one of the advantages of Apollo is that it had been upgraded with the ability to set and forget, to launch and act completely autonomously with several preprogrammed immensely intelligent attack profiles. Now, without benefit of FTL they'll lose that slate wiping ability yes, but ... used in conjunction with other ship maneuvers, and the benefit of the 'covertly' laid pods' element of surprise would wreak havoc on someone's command. Wouldn't it?

I know the Apollo control missile (ACM) was described as having a much more powerful expert system "AI", and of course it acts as a capacity multiplier because you only need 1 fire control link to the ACM to control the whole 8+1 missile cluster. But I don't remember it being described as having greater fire and forget capabilities.

It might, but if we're talking MDM ranges I really suspect it still needs some significant remote cuing to get within its terminal attack range. (But I could have forgotten some bit of text-ev that says otherwise)

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Just remember that something has to be relatively near the missile to provide fire control. In the case of Hancock that was Sarnow's BCs (and escorts) which ran a course past the pods and launched and controlled them then.

And for system defense pods there's fire control relays, nodes, or stations/forts scattered about to control them.



But if you just rolled some off the back of an SD(P) or ammo ship and left them there alone they wouldn't be much use once you're more than a light minutes or so away. That's not necessarily a show stopper, just another factor to consider when looking to pull this trick off.

Forgive me, do, for being so far behind the learning curve for hardware, but I tawt I taw textev stating that one of the advantages of Apollo is that it had been upgraded with the ability to set and forget, to launch and act completely autonomously with several preprogrammed immensely intelligent attack profiles. Now, without benefit of FTL they'll lose that slate wiping ability yes, but ... used in conjunction with other ship maneuvers, and the benefit of the 'covertly' laid pods' element of surprise would wreak havoc on someone's command. Wouldn't it?

johnathan_s wrote:
I know the Apollo control missile (ACM) was described as having a much more powerful expert system "AI", and of course it acts as a capacity multiplier because you only need 1 fire control link to the ACM to control the whole 8+1 missile cluster. But I don't remember it being described as having greater fire and forget capabilities.

It might, but if we're talking MDM ranges I really suspect it still needs some significant remote cuing to get within its terminal attack range. (But I could have forgotten some bit of text-ev that says otherwise)

Perhaps I just misunderstood. That'll be a first for me.

I distinctly remember something about their preprogrammed attack profiles capability being leagues beyond anything the Peeps (or anyone else) had at the time. I also seem to remember passages making it clear that that is a peripheral, backseat ability. Obviously, to be used in this capacity would nullify Apollo's hardhitting hammer ability. But sometimes, only a screwdriver is needed ... to really screw your opponent. Akin to weaker chessplayers always promoting an eighth rank pawn to a queen when a knight would yield a mate.

Edit:
And couldn't the remote cuing come from a Ghost Rider platform? Simple course corrections.


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cthia wrote:Forgive me, do, for being so far behind the learning curve for hardware, but I tawt I taw textev stating that one of the advantages of Apollo is that it had been upgraded with the ability to set and forget, to launch and act completely autonomously with several preprogrammed immensely intelligent attack profiles. ...

Not upgraded, originally built with an expert system that could extrapolate from the originally programmed attack plan if communications were lost.

Apollo isn't a "fire-and-forget" system like the Viper anti-LAC missile.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:
Forgive me, do, for being so far behind the learning curve for hardware, but I tawt I taw textev stating that one of the advantages of Apollo is that it had been upgraded with the ability to set and forget, to launch and act completely autonomously with several preprogrammed immensely intelligent attack profiles. ...

Not upgraded, originally built with an expert system that could extrapolate from the originally programmed attack plan if communications were lost.

Apollo isn't a "fire-and-forget" system like the Viper anti-LAC missile.

There it is!

Thanks Harold — for correcting me as well.

It seems like that "if communications were lost" capability could be used with ruthless effect as "smart-mine-pods." Perhaps in conjunction with a certain nearby stealthy Ghost.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:However, Henke did lay out a large quantity of pods while waiting for Crandall to pluck up his nerve. So it has been done. More than once, I think.

The Apollo pods shoaled at Spindle were dropped by the ammunition ships that brought them ahead off the SD(P)s for tenth fleet. They had to be deployed in a system defense role because Adm Gold Peak (Henke) didn't have any ships capable of launching Apollo pods or even taking advantage of
Apollo's FTL control links.

Also, the pods weren't laid as a mine field and Adm Sandra Crandal didn't run over them.

The only approximation of pods used as a minefield I can think of is the aforementioned last gasp of Agamemnon just before Adm Gold Peak's capture by the RHN.

Yes, but Cthia asked: "Is there a reason a ship couldn't overtly drop shoals of missile pods then move away from said position to activate at a much later strategic time?'" And that's exactly what Admiral Henke did. I don't think he literally meant to use it as a mine field; he was just talking about laying them out in advance the same way you would lay a mine field.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Forgive me, do, for being so far behind the learning curve for hardware, but I tawt I taw textev stating that one of the advantages of Apollo is that it had been upgraded with the ability to set and forget, to launch and act completely autonomously with several preprogrammed immensely intelligent attack profiles. ...

Not upgraded, originally built with an expert system that could extrapolate from the originally programmed attack plan if communications were lost.

Apollo isn't a "fire-and-forget" system like the Viper anti-LAC missile.

They do say that a missile in an Apollo pod, if communication is lost, has a higher percentage chance of a hit due to the advanced AI in the control missile. I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but when that was first mentioned in the books, we did some math here on the forum. With the increased percentage of a hit, times the fact there are eight attack missiles, the overall number of hits per pod fired will be almost exactly the same as in a standard flat pack pod, and actually lower than that of a twelve missile pod.

So, it would still make no sence to fire an Apollo pod without fire control.

Assuming of course that the percentage that was given to us was not a gross underestimation, like they did with the laser head.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:
However, Henke did lay out a large quantity of pods while waiting for Crandall to pluck up his nerve. So it has been done. More than once, I think.

The Apollo pods shoaled at Spindle were dropped by the ammunition ships that brought them ahead off the SD(P)s for tenth fleet. They had to be deployed in a system defense role because Adm Gold Peak (Henke) didn't have any ships capable of launching Apollo pods or even taking advantage of
Apollo's FTL control links.

Also, the pods weren't laid as a mine field and Adm Sandra Crandal didn't run over them.

The only approximation of pods used as a minefield I can think of is the aforementioned last gasp of Agamemnon just before Adm Gold Peak's capture by the RHN.

swm wrote:Yes, but Cthia asked: "Is there a reason a ship couldn't overtly drop shoals of missile pods then move away from said position to activate at a much later strategic time?'" And that's exactly what Admiral Henke did. I don't think he literally meant to use it as a mine field; he was just talking about laying them out in advance the same way you would lay a mine field.

Yes, SWM, I was suggesting that the pods could be deployed in advance, "covertly" I meant, to be used as missile pods later on in an engagement. There is some jockeying for tactical position in engagements, lots in the case of Fearless and Thunder of God, and I contemplated predeploying pods at strategic locations then maneuvering an opponent into a crossfire. Or letting your opponent think that they are maneuvering you right where you want them.

It just seems doable — and bears the earmark of someone Salamandering about the quadrant.

Since all a mine is, is a single shot box launcher with a single drive missile set to sprint mode, I stand by my assertion that Honor used pre-deployed pods at Hancock. The only difference between a single shot "pod" and the pods currently in use is the number of missiles. The tactics involved would be the same. The fact that some of the newer missiles have better targeting abilities is just icing on the cake if they are used in a minefield configuration.

KNick wrote:Since all a mine is, is a single shot box launcher with a single drive missile set to sprint mode, ...

The Short Victorious War
Chapter Seventeen wrote:The objection made sense, since the mines were simply old-fashioned bomb-pumped lasers. They were cheap but good for only a single shot each, and their accuracy was less than outstanding, which made them most effective when employed en masse against ships moving at low velocities. That meant they were usually emplaced for area coverage of relatively immobile targets like wormhole junctions, planets, or orbital bases . . . where, as Banton had just pointed out, the Peeps would expect to see them. But putting them where the Peeps expected wasn't what Honor had in mind.

Mines are just a warhead with minimal station keep drives. It is NOT any sort of pod or missile.

I do remember some text ev about Ghost Rider drones being used to assist with fire control but I don't remember where. I don't think it was with Apollo.

The heart of Apollo is that the control missile has, along with a very capable AI, a ftl link which allows shipboard computers to guide it while in turn it controls the other missiles from the same pod. It takes keyhole 2 to fully utilize Apollo.

At Spindle, Terekov's squadron was able to utilize Apollo, but only with light speed links, not ftl.

Don