Unexplored sea approaches to the Temple Lands?

This is on a subject that may already have been brought up; if so, please accept my apologies.

Every so often, looking at a map of Safehold, I'm struck by the fact that Safehold is a planet, and it's just as easy for a ship to sail east from places such as Chisolm, as it is to sail west. Granted, there is the Great Western Ocean, which looks to be huge, but it also appears there might be at least some anchorages along the way, such as Hill Island or even Claw Island.

We haven't heard much about these areas. Either that, or there's been some discussion in one of the books that I've forgotten or missed completely.

A second area that hasn't received much attention is Hsing-wu's Passage. I know the passage is closed much of the year due to ice. Nevertheless, it offers potentially the most direct sea access to Zion.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

The frontal assault on Zion by mere amphibious forces would probably need much more technological superiority than ICN currently have. If Clyntah&Co isn't completely dumb, they should think about this possibility.

The other problem is the possibility of some built-in defends in the Temple. The possibility of the Rakurai platform's intervention during the attack on Zion... Isn't something that Merlin or others could not take into account. And even less lethal force - even non-lethal at all - may be disastrous for invasion. What if, for example, the giant hologramm of Archangel Langhorne appear over the Temple and started to shame the attackers?

XofDallas wrote:This is on a subject that may already have been brought up; if so, please accept my apologies.

Every so often, looking at a map of Safehold, I'm struck by the fact that Safehold is a planet, and it's just as easy for a ship to sail east from places such as Chisolm, as it is to sail west. Granted, there is the Great Western Ocean, which looks to be huge, but it also appears there might be at least some anchorages along the way, such as Hill Island or even Claw Island.

We haven't heard much about these areas. Either that, or there's been some discussion in one of the books that I've forgotten or missed completely.

A second area that hasn't received much attention is Hsing-wu's Passage. I know the passage is closed much of the year due to ice. Nevertheless, it offers potentially the most direct sea access to Zion.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Yes, that has been a topic of past discussion.

Your title for the thread is misleading--those routes are not unexplored. We know that there are towns along both routes.

We have generally assumed that the attack on the Gulf of Dohlar or on Harchong would involve voyages east from Corisande. And most of the discussion of attack on Zion has assumed using Hsing-Wu's Passage.

You will probably be interested in seeing the map wrapped onto a globe. Someone has done this, using the Celestia software. He has a Celestia add-on you could use yourself, and has some screenshots. See the thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2288&p=44579&hilit=globe#p44579

SWM wrote:We have generally assumed that the attack on the Gulf of Dohlar or on Harchong would involve voyages east from Corisande. And most of the discussion of attack on Zion has assumed using Hsing-Wu's Passage.

You will probably be interested in seeing the map wrapped onto a globe. Someone has done this, using the Celestia software. He has a Celestia add-on you could use yourself, and has some screenshots. See the thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2288&p=44579&hilit=globe#p44579

I looked at the maps, and thank you! I looked at the site, and sadly could not find a map of the Western Ocean. I did use the map from Pearls of Weber, though, and figured out it's about 10,500 km (6500 mi) from Manchyr to Claw Island in a straight line - about the distance from Los Angeles to Shanghai. From Claw Island to Gorath Bay is another 7000 km (4400 mi) (New York to Moscow).

Similarly, from Spinefish Bay to the entrance to Temple Bay appears to be about 4500 km (2800 mi), about the driving distance from New York to Los Angeles.


The distances are a bit longer than I'd thought.

FYI...

Look at the collection of "3D" globe images referred to in my signature line. You may find them useful to the discusdion.



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Actually Zion is probably not that difficult a target in a purely military sense, at least for Charis. It is approachable by sea so they can land troops that way and the only Temple troops allowed anywhere near it are the Inquisition's own units. So the defenders are composed of people who have no field experience in using or facing the new weapons. Who knows when they last actually saw action as a unit at all? Probably there aren't really that many of them in military terms.

The problems in attacking Zion are the possibility of waking up whatever is beneath the Temple, as XofDallas said, and the likely PR backlash.

Hi XofDallas,

Your distances are a bit off.

I think you were trying to use the scale provided and its a bit off, the map having been reduced a few times.

It helps to peg a few locations where distances have been given such as Tellesberg being almost 1300 south of the equator, 400 miles from Guarnak to the Hildermoss River, etc.

Despite Safehold being a bit smaller than Earth, RFC posted in his post "Raw Meat For the Speculators" [April 15 2012] that the distance from Port Royal to Gorath Bay was 14,270 miles, while the distance to Siddar City was 9,830 miles, ans SC was something over 8,000 miles from Tellesberg.

I believe Claw Island is some 10,000 miles from Port Royal, Gorath Bay another 4,000; I actually prefer your figures because it makes the distances traveled fit much easier in the time given.

Since distances at 60 degrees latitude are half that on the equator, so the distance from Spinefish Bay is somewhat less than 2800 miles IIRC, the globe projections certainly help figuring.

L

XofDallas wrote:

SWM wrote:We have generally assumed that the attack on the Gulf of Dohlar or on Harchong would involve voyages east from Corisande. And most of the discussion of attack on Zion has assumed using Hsing-Wu's Passage.

You will probably be interested in seeing the map wrapped onto a globe. Someone has done this, using the Celestia software. He has a Celestia add-on you could use yourself, and has some screenshots. See the thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2288&p=44579&hilit=globe#p44579

I looked at the maps, and thank you! I looked at the site, and sadly could not find a map of the Western Ocean. I did use the map from Pearls of Weber, though, and figured out it's about 10,500 km (6500 mi) from Manchyr to Claw Island in a straight line - about the distance from Los Angeles to Shanghai. From Claw Island to Gorath Bay is another 7000 km (4400 mi) (New York to Moscow).

Similarly, from Spinefish Bay to the entrance to Temple Bay appears to be about 4500 km (2800 mi), about the driving distance from New York to Los Angeles.


The distances are a bit longer than I'd thought.

I don't see why you have to attach the Zion at all. While you made need to invade the Temple Lands, Zion is the perfect target for a siege and/or blockade. It is a city in a cold climate that has to depend almost exclusively on imports for food and fuel. In fact, it appears it already has struggles to meet it own needs each winter as problems of starvation and exposure haunt the poor of Zion each winter as it is. Imagine how quickly the situation would deteriorate if all the imports of food and coal suddenly stopped.

Secondly, if you cut off communications from the Temple and the Group of Four how long would it take for other resistance to collapse. So much of the control of the War is coming from the top and with a culture which does not encourage innovation and self initiative, command and control along with logistics and funding would grind to halt.

The only real problem with this might be Merlin. Clyntahn and the die hard members of the Inquisition might never surrender. They would be willing for the entire population of Zion to suffer. Of course at some point the Vicarate rather than starve and freeze might actually find the courage to over throw the Group of Four. Or the other three member might do it themselves.

However, Merlin might not be willing to inflict that type of deprivation on the population of Zion, knowing that Clyntahn might pull a Hitler and be willing to take down everyone else around him.

The Cyber PICA wrote:I don't see why you have to attach the Zion at all. While you made need to invade the Temple Lands, Zion is the perfect target for a siege and/or blockade. It is a city in a cold climate that has to depend almost exclusively on imports for food and fuel. In fact, it appears it already has struggles to meet it own needs each winter as problems of starvation and exposure haunt the poor of Zion each winter as it is. Imagine how quickly the situation would deteriorate if all the imports of food and coal suddenly stopped.

Secondly, if you cut off communications from the Temple and the Group of Four how long would it take for other resistance to collapse. So much of the control of the War is coming from the top and with a culture which does not encourage innovation and self initiative, command and control along with logistics and funding would grind to halt.

The only real problem with this might be Merlin. Clyntahn and the die hard members of the Inquisition might never surrender. They would be willing for the entire population of Zion to suffer. Of course at some point the Vicarate rather than starve and freeze might actually find the courage to over throw the Group of Four. Or the other three member might do it themselves.

However, Merlin might not be willing to inflict that type of deprivation on the population of Zion, knowing that Clyntahn might pull a Hitler and be willing to take down everyone else around him.

I think your logic works better if you isolate Zion from the temple. Enter with your force into Zion and surround the temple itself rather than the city with your lines about a quarter to half mile from the perimeter of the temple. Evacuate the city itself and wait for the denizens of the temple to wave a white flag or starve.

Don