Thirsk & Ahlvarez - SPOILER

Just been rereading LAMA...you know, to while away the time between now and the next snippet.... Delthak has been refitted with breach loaders that can be run out hydraulicly. Not that it will make any difference as to whether or not some idiot opens a gunport in the midst of a storm!

Don

Dilandu wrote:
I assume that no sane captain of river ironclad would make an attempt to fire his guns in open sea.

You paint a picture of a vessel that must hide in shadows of rivers and be afraid to lose sight of the shoreline and an environment of constant raging storms. IMO Not so! The Gun Ports are not at waterline and the gundeck is scuppered. A little water is to be expected. In 4' seas, quartering waves . . . you fight, in big weather no one will move very quickly in any case, but the Captain can maintain contact with ease until he wants to engage.

The Delthaks under moderate seas will run circles around the Galleons and pound them to kindling. You are correct that in gale force winds they will just have to hunker down and run with the wind but under moderate conditions (which is most of the time) they will prove to be solid platforms for fighting in the Gulf of Dohlar. In most cases, a single shot either across the Bow or into a ship at distance will cause any sane Captain to strike.


The problem will be finding Prize crews.

When I started this thread, I hoped we would speculate on the Political ramifications of Thirsk and Ahlvarez being defeated and captured by the EoC. Their King is deposed and Dohlar has a political Vacuum.

We have beat up the topic of the Delthaks (I will cease to call them Riverboats) until RFC steps in an tells us his plans for them or describes their functionality on the seas.

dwileye13 wrote:
You paint a picture of a vessel that must hide in shadows of rivers and be afraid to lose sight of the shoreline and an environment of constant raging storms. IMO Not so! The Gun Ports are not at waterline and the gundeck is scuppered. A little water is to be expected. In 4' seas, quartering waves . . . you fight, in big weather no one will move very quickly in any case, but the Captain can maintain contact with ease until he wants to engage.

I paint a picture of the RIVER ironclad, that was designed to operate in rivers. Not in open seas. It make no more sense, then attempt to use A-10 as frontline fighter in aerial combat. The A-10, undoubtly, could launch at least "Sidewinders" to the enemy fighter; he also undoubtly would be destroyed simply because he wasn't designed to the air-to-air combat.

The problem is, that the RIVER ship must have some parameters, that totally contradict with the seaworthness. The main of them - the RIVER ship should have as little draft as possible, It's no much use of RIVER ironclad, that couldn't even enter the river, you agree?

The low draft means, that the ship must have low sides. Or she wouldn't be stable. And the low draft and low sides means, that this ship wouldn't dare to risk even a slight chance of take a water in open sea, She simply wouldn't be able to straighten.

Dilandu wrote:
I paint a picture of the RIVER ironclad, that was designed to operate in rivers. Not in open seas. It make no more sense, then attempt to use A-10 as frontline fighter in aerial combat. The A-10, undoubtly, could launch at least "Sidewinders" to the enemy fighter; he also undoubtly would be destroyed simply because he wasn't designed to the air-to-air combat.

The problem is, that the RIVER ship must have some parameters, that totally contradict with the seaworthness. The main of them - the RIVER ship should have as little draft as possible, It's no much use of RIVER ironclad, that couldn't even enter the river, you agree?

The low draft means, that the ship must have low sides. Or she wouldn't be stable. And the low draft and low sides means, that this ship wouldn't dare to risk even a slight chance of take a water in open sea, She simply wouldn't be able to straighten.

But they do take them to sea - over 6,000 (8,000?) miles from Charis to the mainland and they survive a major storm, rescuing a galleon. This indicates to me that it is perfectly feasible to use them against galleons and screw driven galleys on the high or low seas.

Also, after Ahlvarez's experiences with the Army of Shiloh's command team, he is probably going to go and beg forgivness from Thirsk for his attitude and lack of understanding.

But they do take them to sea - over 6,000 (8,000?) miles from Charis to the mainland and they survive a major storm, rescuing a galleon. This indicates to me that it is perfectly feasible to use them against galleons and screw driven galleys on the high or low seas.

Did you not see the whole quote from MT&T I posted earlier? The only reason why Delthak made the trip was because they battened down all the hatches and gunports. There's no way that she would have survived rough weather if she had opened up the gunports for battle.

And given her relatively low draft, a River would make for a terrible gun platform when the seas are heaving. She'd be less of a stable gun platform than a galleon.

Hi Don,

Thank you for pointing this out when I forgot to add it.

Recoil operated 6" rifled guns are quite a bit different than smooth-bores, NTM rather superior range and rate of fire, considerably reducing the time needed to open and close the gun ports, which is done mechanically.

Since the galleon can't hurt the ironclad in the first place, how much of a roll does the ironclad need?

L

n7axw wrote:Just been rereading LAMA...you know, to while away the time between now and the next snippet.... Delthak has been refitted with breach loaders that can be run out hydraulicly. Not that it will make any difference as to whether or not some idiot opens a gunport in the midst of a storm!

Don

Hi Dwileye13,

Thread drift is always a bizarre phenomenon, the diversions never predictable.

Thirsk and his fleet will be a player in Gorath City, I've never believed it would be leveled by the ICN though the palace may need some restoration; while the buildup and transformation of Ahlverez seems to have but one purpose, to make him another player when the collapse comes and the Duke of fern needs regents for whichever royal son or grandson he picks as the best of the lot for Dohlar's future.

They'll be accepted by the public, ie the Gorath city population, being the best admiral and general Dohlar has, giving them the power to eliminate the jackasses that have held Dohlar back for far too long.

I don't believe Thirsk will be sent off to engage Sharpfield given how near DE and EHM are, when they could slip by each other and as far as Dohlar knows Sharpfield arrive without Thirsk to defend the capitol, before getting into the further naval cuts he's warned his captains to expect.

If the capitol garrison is sent off to face DE and or EHM, his marines might be seconded to police the capitol, perhaps at the invitation and design of Duke Fern.

Given Ahlverez crossing the Seridahn near Thesmar, then marching home or up to join with Rychtyr, his success will make him the public's hero, the most popular leader in Dohlar.

By supporting the sensible ones, Ahlverez can help move Dohlar whereby withdrawing from the jihad will keep it largely intact, since I suspect the republic will insist on some border changes if not a large 'buffer zone'.

L

dwileye13 wrote:When I started this thread, I hoped we would speculate on the Political ramifications of Thirsk and Ahlvarez being defeated and captured by the EoC. Their King is deposed and Dohlar has a political Vacuum.

We have beat up the topic of the Delthaks (I will cease to call them Riverboats) until RFC steps in an tells us his plans for them or describes their functionality on the seas.

Hi Dilandu,

The A-10 like the Sukhoi-25 is a very maneuverable plane and few supersonic fighters would willingly get into a tight turning fight with either of them, besides the Sidewinders and ECM flares etc the A-10 carries since the USAF expects the A-10 to take care of itself in an emergency.

BTW, what's the story you mentioned regarding the HMS Agamemnon being hit with Turkish stones?

The wiki reports it was hit several times by Turkish shells, but none were stones.

Perhaps you should amend the wiki article.

L

Dilandu wrote:

dwileye13 wrote:
You paint a picture of a vessel that must hide in shadows of rivers and be afraid to lose sight of the shoreline and an environment of constant raging storms. IMO Not so! The Gun Ports are not at waterline and the gundeck is scuppered. A little water is to be expected. In 4' seas, quartering waves . . . you fight, in big weather no one will move very quickly in any case, but the Captain can maintain contact with ease until he wants to engage.

I paint a picture of the RIVER ironclad, that was designed to operate in rivers. Not in open seas. It make no more sense, then attempt to use A-10 as frontline fighter in aerial combat. The A-10, undoubtly, could launch at least "Sidewinders" to the enemy fighter; he also undoubtly would be destroyed simply because he wasn't designed to the air-to-air combat.

The problem is, that the RIVER ship must have some parameters, that totally contradict with the seaworthness. The main of them - the RIVER ship should have as little draft as possible, It's no much use of RIVER ironclad, that couldn't even enter the river, you agree?

The low draft means, that the ship must have low sides. Or she wouldn't be stable. And the low draft and low sides means, that this ship wouldn't dare to risk even a slight chance of take a water in open sea, She simply wouldn't be able to straighten.

I am wondering why this discussion about the riverclads has taken the present tack.

I am going to summarize how I have heard the discusson developing.

1. The original 4 ironclads have been established as reasonably seaworthy, having successfully traveled from Charis to Siddar City. Further, Delthak herself not only survived a severe storm, but was able to rescue a stricken galleon. There is textev that higher freeboards were added to Delthak to make her more seaworthy.

2.No one but a complete idiot would open an ironclads gunports and attempt to use the cannon during a storm. No one has been arguing to the contrary, and yet we seem to keep posting as if there was disagreement on this which has been puzzling me because I don't see a disagreement. In calm to moderate conditions, Delthak and her sisters can fight just fine.

3.At this point we have no information on the next generation riverclads. We don't know whether they are bigger or smaller. Smaller would make some sense since there are some canals the Delthak class are too big to enter, but they do have to be kept seaworthy enough to get to wherever they need to be operational.

While you don't want to take the ironclads out on the Sea of Justice during storm season, they can probably operate in the Gulf of Jahras or the Gulf of Dohlar provided they do so with reasonable caution (including not opening your gunports durung a storm).

Don