Dohlar and Destabilization

I wonder if htey would destroy the canals to block the advance of iron clads. IT would mean they wont be able to advance easily themselves. THe iron clads are reasonably close by, so they could reach the region quick enough, to help defeat what assets they have there.
the inquistion left prders to canal operators to destroy locks to stop iron clad advance, but were those orders given to every lock out there.

we know the langhorne canal is not suited for such heavy transport or use, so i doubt dohlar canals and their boats can sustain the war long term.

if attacked dohlar is forced to defend, draining forces from the sea defences.

I wonder if htey would destroy the canals to block the advance of iron clads. IT would mean they wont be able to advance easily themselves. THe iron clads are reasonably close by, so they could reach the region quick enough, to help defeat what assets they have there.
the inquistion left prders to canal operators to destroy locks to stop iron clad advance, but were those orders given to every lock out there.

we know the langhorne canal is not suited for such heavy transport or use, so i doubt dohlar canals and their boats can sustain the war long term.

if attacked dohlar is forced to defend, draining forces from the sea defences.

The tenor of many of the posts advocate a very aggressive strategy with the assumption that with one push Dohlar will fall. I think a few small items are being overlooked.

The battle which annihilated the Desnarian Army and severely mauled the Dohlar Army came at the cost of making the blocking force units combat ineffective for the foreseeable future. The blocking units were a major portion of the mobile element of the Allies Southern Army.

The remaining Allied forces in the southern theater are more then adequate to establish a strong defensive line from Thesmar to the Snake Mountians with the reserves needed to remove loyalist enclaves in Southern Siddarmark.

The forces needed for a major incursion into Dohlar would strip most the combat effective forces from the Southern Front. Those forces would be far forward and unavailable to counter unforeseen events. And there is no guaranty the operation would have the desired effect of knocking Dohlar out of the war.

I think what is happening here is target fixation. But what are or is the ultimate goal of the War? Secure our flanks, protect our citizenry, reduce loyalist enclaves are all within the Allies grasp in the south so forces can be freed up for the decisive battle.

The ultimate goal is to get into the Temple in Zion. The war winning assault on Zion can not realistically be launched from The Southern Front. It will either be an amphibious and land advance along the Hsing-wu's Passage or an assault through The Border States from the Central Front.

Tim wrote:The tenor of many of the posts advocate a very aggressive strategy with the assumption that with one push Dohlar will fall. I think a few small items are being overlooked.

The battle which annihilated the Desnarian Army and severely mauled the Dohlar Army came at the cost of making the blocking force units combat ineffective for the foreseeable future. The blocking units were a major portion of the mobile element of the Allies Southern Army.

The remaining Allied forces in the southern theater are more then adequate to establish a strong defensive line from Thesmar to the Snake Mountians with the reserves needed to remove loyalist enclaves in Southern Siddarmark.

The forces needed for a major incursion into Dohlar would strip most the combat effective forces from the Southern Front. Those forces would be far forward and unavailable to counter unforeseen events. And there is no guaranty the operation would have the desired effect of knocking Dohlar out of the war.

I think what is happening here is target fixation. But what are or is the ultimate goal of the War? Secure our flanks, protect our citizenry, reduce loyalist enclaves are all within the Allies grasp in the south so forces can be freed up for the decisive battle.

The ultimate goal is to get into the Temple in Zion. The war winning assault on Zion can not realistically be launched from The Southern Front. It will either be an amphibious and land advance along the Hsing-wu's Passage or an assault through The Border States from the Central Front.

You have a very valid point here, but given the current expansion of Siddarmark's army, the alliance is going to be able to recoup its combat losses quicker than you seem to be allowing for.

A question in my own mind is what happens when EOC/RSA forces move far enough west toward Howard and Dohlar to start flanking the Harchongese from the south. It should make their supply routes less secure, don't you think? Also knocking Dohlar and Desnair out of the war before confronting the Harchongese would be highly desirable, at bare minimum.

Don

In a war you always have finite number of men and supplies to achieve final victory in the shortest amount of time and the least cost of live and treasure. So does the Alliance really need to spend their resources on an expanded Southern Front? Will the greater return on the effort expended be from trying to knock out Dohlar or using the men and material on other fronts?

Which of the three axis's of advance will the Alliance select to be their war winning strategy?. In my opinion an advance out of the Southern Front would be more costly and take more time. So if the Southern Front is not the main axis's of advance troops and material should be transferred out after stabilizing the south.

n7axw wrote:

Tim wrote:The ultimate goal is to get into the Temple in Zion. The war winning assault on Zion can not realistically be launched from The Southern Front. It will either be an amphibious and land advance along the Hsing-wu's Passage or an assault through The Border States from the Central Front.

You have a very valid point here, but given the current expansion of Siddarmark's army, the alliance is going to be able to recoup its combat losses quicker than you seem to be allowing for.

A question in my own mind is what happens when EOC/RSA forces move far enough west toward Howard and Dohlar to start flanking the Harchongese from the south. It should make their supply routes less secure, don't you think? Also knocking Dohlar and Desnair out of the war before confronting the Harchongese would be highly desirable, at bare minimum.

Don

Tim, I think you have some very good points. In a way, you underscore something we speculative folk need to keep in mind - that it is speculation, and we'll have to wait till RFC publishes more before we will know. That's the fun of it, imho.

There are two things I think still indicate a southern approach is more likely.

First is logistics. As the Alliance forces get closer to Temple lands, their supply lines become longer, more costly and more vulnerable. The cost, moreover, manifests itself primarily in terms of food for the draft animals. Without forage, draft animals easily can wind up consuming most of the provisions being transported.

That's why The Erie Canal was so important, and why it led to the growth of New York City - it allowed people in the interior to transport goods in a cost-effective manner for the first time (same thing for Chicago, when the Chicago River's flow was reversed and Lake Michigan became connected by water, ultimately, with the Mississippi River).

Here, there are a lot of canals available. However, the Salthar Canal will shave thousands of miles off of water travel to the Gulf of Dohlar, making that route much more feasible and much less expensive. The Temple Lands then become more readily accessed through areas such as Malansath or the Gulf of Tanshar.

Securing that Canal, and protecting it, quite possibly will be a high priority for the Alliance.

The second factor is the need to protect one's flanks. The biggest military threats to the Alliance, once Siddarmark is secured, would be Harchong (straight ahead), the countries in the Howard subcontinent (which should effectively be interdicted through sea power and control of the North Watch area), and... the area around Dohlar (on the Alliance's flank if the Temple Lands are approached directly west from Siddarmark).

If it was up to me, I would want to neutralize that threat.

It's going to be fun seeing what develops.

Tim wrote:
In a war you always have finite number of men and supplies to achieve final victory in the shortest amount of time and the least cost of live and treasure. So does the Alliance really need to spend their resources on an expanded Southern Front? Will the greater return on the effort expended be from trying to knock out Dohlar or using the men and material on other fronts?

AND how many of those finite troops will be tied down trying to occupy Dohlar. Charis was lucky in Corisande- I doubt that there is as much reformist sentiment in Dohlar, nor is there the time.
And -so far there's no one to really deal with. Since their sailors were released to the Inquisition (to be murdered), many many of the "good guys" are really pissed. That's not a good way to start an occupation.

XofDallas wrote:Tim, I think you have some very good points. In a way, you underscore something we speculative folk need to keep in mind - that it is speculation, and we'll have to wait till RFC publishes more before we will know. That's the fun of it, imho.

There are two things I think still indicate a southern approach is more likely.

First is logistics. As the Alliance forces get closer to Temple lands, their supply lines become longer, more costly and more vulnerable. The cost, moreover, manifests itself primarily in terms of food for the draft animals. Without forage, draft animals easily can wind up consuming most of the provisions being transported.

That's why The Erie Canal was so important, and why it led to the growth of New York City - it allowed people in the interior to transport goods in a cost-effective manner for the first time (same thing for Chicago, when the Chicago River's flow was reversed and Lake Michigan became connected by water, ultimately, with the Mississippi River).

Here, there are a lot of canals available. However, the Salthar Canal will shave thousands of miles off of water travel to the Gulf of Dohlar, making that route much more feasible and much less expensive. The Temple Lands then become more readily accessed through areas such as Malansath or the Gulf of Tanshar.

Securing that Canal, and protecting it, quite possibly will be a high priority for the Alliance.

The second factor is the need to protect one's flanks. The biggest military threats to the Alliance, once Siddarmark is secured, would be Harchong (straight ahead), the countries in the Howard subcontinent (which should effectively be interdicted through sea power and control of the North Watch area), and... the area around Dohlar (on the Alliance's flank if the Temple Lands are approached directly west from Siddarmark).

If it was up to me, I would want to neutralize that threat.

It's going to be fun seeing what develops.

I think you have laid it out pretty well. I would only add that Dohlar has been the church's most effective ally so far, so you don't want it left behind you to raise another army or to assist in further arming the Harchongese. Also, you need to keep Desnair out of it by making sure Howard is isolated.

Don

Hi Tim,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite cg beverage on the cg forum.

You make some excellent points, the flanking force was the Earl of High Mount's Army of Cliff Peak distinct from Duke Eastshare's Army of the Branath's in being entirely 'Charisian' and its 'Second Corps' suffered the heavy casualties in keeping the AoS bottled up.

Given its name, I've suggested it would sweep north to the Daivyn, clearing the province of TL's while working back up to strength, to again flank the incoming Harchong quarter-army coming straight from the Langhorne Canal river junction, following Symkyn's anticipated destruction of Cahnyr Kaitswyrth's AoG [Army of God] AoG [Army of Glacierheart] which might have had only 9,000 rifles after DE got through with it and still have much less than Symkyn's 70,000 man Army of the Daivyn, since TMHoGatA got most of the rest, from March or April, possibly into May.

From there it might go south via the Fairmyn river etc to Dairnyth to head off the southern Harchong quarter-army, while Symkyn went north to aid BGV against the northern Harchong quarter-army trying to replace Wyrshym's wrecked AoG's Army of Sylman.

DE's AoB didn't suffer such heavy losses, and while some perhaps a corps pursues Ahlverez, the rest aside from that dealing with the Desnari POW's, is dashing to Everytyn to reinforce Hanth, while Ahlverez crosses the Seridahn near Thesmar to regain contact with Dohlar and find more food etc.

Once Rychtyr has fully dug in at Evrytyn, DE will sidestep and and flank him, cutting his supplies if he doesn't retreat, and leaving Dohlar's 900 mile border essentially undefended after all he and Ahlverez can do, compelling Dohlar to seek terms.

This in combination with the last ICA contingent [September X] that may be tasked with taking the Salthar Canal, the North Watch province, liberating Silkiah along the way, would provide the flank protection to concentrate on the Border States, while BGV heads to Zion via Hsing-wu's passage, possibly followed by Symkyn.

I hope this explains some of us are not so focused on just the south.

L

Tim wrote:The tenor of many of the posts advocate a very aggressive strategy with the assumption that with one push Dohlar will fall. I think a few small items are being overlooked.

The battle which annihilated the Desnarian Army and severely mauled the Dohlar Army came at the cost of making the blocking force units combat ineffective for the foreseeable future. The blocking units were a major portion of the mobile element of the Allies Southern Army.

The remaining Allied forces in the southern theater are more then adequate to establish a strong defensive line from Thesmar to the Snake Mountians with the reserves needed to remove loyalist enclaves in Southern Siddarmark.

The forces needed for a major incursion into Dohlar would strip most the combat effective forces from the Southern Front. Those forces would be far forward and unavailable to counter unforeseen events. And there is no guaranty the operation would have the desired effect of knocking Dohlar out of the war.

I think what is happening here is target fixation. But what are or is the ultimate goal of the War? Secure our flanks, protect our citizenry, reduce loyalist enclaves are all within the Allies grasp in the south so forces can be freed up for the decisive battle.

The ultimate goal is to get into the Temple in Zion. The war winning assault on Zion can not realistically be launched from The Southern Front. It will either be an amphibious and land advance along the Hsing-wu's Passage or an assault through The Border States from the Central Front.

Don, it all depends what you mean by 'knock Dohlar and Desnair out of the war'. I don't think the Alliance can either invade and control them, takes way too many troops, or get them to accept peace terms, the Church and their sense of honour won't let them. So the best one can hope for is to keep them out of action for a while by controlling their easy supply routes into the campaign area. The whole war is driven from Zion and the only way for the EoC to end it is to bring about regime change there.