SPOILER: LaMA ans Snippet #7 : MISSING the ELEPHANT

Hi InvisibleBison,

There's textev in a couple places including the LaMA October section 2 discussion, that Clyntahn has made sure his inquisition is in control of Zion and its surroundings.

Although how many are like major Phandys?

Who many surmise had been ordered by Hauwerd Wylsynn to kill him to cover his connection with the circle and possibly Nynian.

Clyntahn isn't the only one who can be clever and ruthless.

L

InvisibleBison wrote:

Kakai wrote:
Or he could use his Temple Guard, of which he is, after all, supreme commander. IIRC, there are still some Temple Guards in the Temple. If their numbers are anything like Inquisition's, then I'd say they could beat them - after all, Inquisitors are not trained in the ways TGs are. OTOH, Inqusition has all this wonderful "magic" toys, so I'd say that in event of confrontation, chances would be quite even. (Think about this action scenes! )
Of course, it's entirely possible TGs in the Temple are Inquisition's agents, like the one who gutted Hawerd Wyllsyn. Then consequences for Magwair would be catastrophic then if he tried to use them.

It's an interesting idea, but it's not possible. Clyntahn knows the Temple Guard - and the Army of God that has spawned off of it - could be dangerous to him, and he's taken measures to counter it. There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

Hi Dilandu,

I suspect wrecking the MHoGatA by this summer and fall will also cause the rest of the Go4 and vicarate to demand much more protection.

BGV could be near Spinefish Bay when he defeats the Harchong army group north, with Port Home only ~2 5days away, which is only hours from Zion.

L

Dilandu wrote:

InvisibleBison wrote:It's an interesting idea, but it's not possible. Clyntahn knows the Temple Guard - and the Army of God that has spawned off of it - could be dangerous to him, and he's taken measures to counter it. There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

Hm, but what if Charis help a little to... presuade the Clyntahn? For example, if some charisian warships appeared in sea near Zion (and maybe even shell the city) and the Church spies manage to obtain some (fake, of course) information, that would hint about the planned Charisian attack on Zion - even the Clyntahn may find it pretty hard to convince all the vicarate that his Inquisitors would be able to protect them. Especially if something like KH's would already be in action in Gulf of Dohlar.

And if the Clyntahn would be forced to agree with a large AoG contingent in Zion...

Hi Kakai,

Excellent points!

What connection Nynian and Duchairn may have has been discussed here in many a thread, along with the mysterious Major Phandys, and whatever role he's going to play.

Will he kill Clyntahn in revenge for having to kill Hauwerd?

L

Kakai wrote:

InvisibleBison wrote:There is textev (I don't recall where exactly) that the only military forces in Zion are the Inquisition (an interesting side question - does anyone know if these are just regular priests with weapons, or does the Inquisition have an actual military arm?). If I recall correctly, there aren't any AoG forces within several days march, at least, of Zion, so any sort of military coup against Clyntahn would be extremely difficult - unless it came from within the Inquisition, of course.

I'm fairly confident there's no SWAT-esque unit inside Inquisition, or otherwise we'd have seen them at this stage of war. On the unrelated note, do we consider Temple Guard a military or paramilitary outfit? Wordplay is neither below or beyond RFC!

Sadly, there's no textev, between the lines or not, about changing attitudes of Inquisitors. With probably one example (the Intendant who helped Zagyrsk, I think), they all seem to support GI.

Dilandu wrote:Hm, but what if Charis help a little to... presuade the Clyntahn? For example, if some charisian warships appeared in sea near Zion (and maybe even shell the city) and the Church spies manage to obtain some (fake, of course) information, that would hint about the planned Charisian attack on Zion - even the Clyntahn may find it pretty hard to convince all the vicarate that his Inquisitors would be able to protect them. Especially if something like KH's would already be in action in Gulf of Dohlar.

And if the Clyntahn would be forced to agree with a large AoG contingent in Zion...

That could be arranged, if only Inner Circle would know what's going on inside the Temple. They don't, unless Nynian will share some really cool info source.

Back to this idea of Duchair and Nynian cooperating (I know it's improbable, but it opens so many possibilities!), if one or another Vicar could arrange passing on a note with an interesting offer, that makes your scenario even more probable.

Or it could happen "naturally", so to put it. It would be kind of logical for Charis to arrive in whereabouts of the Temple, if only to scare them. Then it would be time for somebody to play Xanatos Speed Chess...*

I am probably overanalizing, but I really like your idea.

*refer to TVTropes, if you don't know that one.

I think Lyonheart is right about the Temple in some guise hearing of EHM's arrival. However I'm not so sure about the Hierarchy's ability to follow their direction or progress once they got say, 100 miles or so from Siddar City. TL's seeing the columns is unavoidable but no big deal, unless they are in contact with the Temple and can pass reports. Given the depth of hatred and bitterness between the TLs and the rest of Siddarmark I can believe that anyone in the countryside controlled by Siddarmark who was even remotely suspected of being a TL spy has been dealt with with extreme prejudice by his neighbours.

As for the Desnairian logistics. Duchairn has been very busy on a whole lot of fronts; canal fixing, housing and supplying the MHoGatA, sorting out steel and armament production, supplying Kaitswyrth and (the guy Green Valley is about to surprise), NTM caring for the poor in Zion and progressing the plot he thinks about cryptically from time to time. He may just have dropped this ball.

On the other hand, we have certainly seen in the past how all of the GoF have had critical info which they just haven't appreciated or have managed to ignore because it didn't fit their presuppositions. Think of the reports from Thirsk and the Tarotisian admiral after the first round of naval battles; the GoF went right ahead building a new galley fleet at a huge waste of time and money despite having all the evidence they needed that it would be useless. They are very competent, after a fashion, but not infallible.

Another factor is that we don't seem to have seen a GoF conference for a fair while so we don't know quite what they were thinking or doing.

Randomiser wrote:I think Lyonheart is right about the Temple in some guise hearing of EHM's arrival. However I'm not so sure about the Hierarchy's ability to follow their direction or progress once they got say, 100 miles or so from Siddar City. TL's seeing the columns is unavoidable but no big deal, unless they are in contact with the Temple and can pass reports.

Good point. They probably don't have semaphores, as they are more like guerilla units with no fixed base (at least that's my impression from MTaT). Wyverns, OTOH, could pass the information, but they have somewhat finite time of usefulness.

Randomiser wrote:As for the Desnairian logistics. Duchairn (...) may just have dropped this ball.

True. There's also the fact that all reports go through the same channel (semaphores), so it's possible that Inquisition might have censored the reports. Although with their lack of understanding of logistics, I fail to see why would they, so your option is more probable.

Randomiser wrote:On the other hand, we have certainly seen in the past how all of the GoF have had critical info which they just haven't appreciated or have managed to ignore because it didn't fit their presuppositions. .

It seems to me that the days of fitting facts into the theory instead of other way round are over for Go4 (with possible exception of Clyntahn). And none of them have even mentioned the EHM's arrival and his army. For me it seems like they didn't even get the info, meaning that the gap in communication must've been somewhere earlier.

I think the critical piece in the formation of a new axis of power within the Temple is Major Phandys. He gained Clyntahn's favor without doing anything that would really confirm his loyalty to Clyntahn.

Yes, he led the guard force sent to arrest the Wylsyn brothers, and killed Samyl (I think) in single combat. Samyl had already killed his brother to avoid torture, and honestly, Phandys did the absolute utmost to favor Samyl's interests over Clyntahn's. Rayno specifically stated that even if the brothers had escaped, they would have been quickly run down and captured, Phandys gave them a clean and painless death.

Since then he's followed Duchairn around and confirmed the truth - that he was doing nothing but indulge his guilty conscience by trying to help the poor of Zion. Had he not, a more fanatical guard might well have been appointed who would fabricate a story that would get Duchairn killed.

I think that if there is any force in Zion or the Temple that can be a swing player in the confrontation between Clyntahn and whatever vestiges of sanity remain within the Temple, Phandys will be its leader.

Of course, we have had no real internal PoV scenes from Phandys that bear on his ultimate loyalties. At the same time, he has shown a remarkable level venom - remarkably low, I mean - toward everybody who is not Clyntahn or one of his toadies, if he is really one of Clyntahn's supporters. They seem to be very much of a kind, honestly, and Phandys doesn't seem to fit very well. Shaped by Clyntahn in Clyntahn's own image Phandys is not.

rakenan wrote:SNIP

Yes, he led the guard force sent to arrest the Wylsyn brothers, and killed Samyl (I think) in single combat. Samyl had already killed his brother to avoid torture, and honestly, Phandys did the absolute utmost to favor Samyl's interests over Clyntahn's. Rayno specifically stated that even if the brothers had escaped, they would have been quickly run down and captured, Phandys gave them a clean and painless death.

SNIP

Wrong brother, it was Hauwerd that killed Samyl not the other way around. Hauwerd was then killed by Phandys.

Hi Randomiser,

Thank you for the vote of confidence, its so rare.

The key to your point about TL spies in the countryside is "remotely suspected"; the good spies won't be.

Regarding messenger wyverns, I suspect some were ordered held back for just such reports.

Regarding Duchairn just dropping the ball, very possible.

However, technically it wasn't his ball any more; he delivered the supplies as far forward as he was allowed.

I can't see him going any further without the rest of the Go4 overruling Desnar [ie Duke Traykos, IDA CG], he doesn't have the authority on his own.

But I suspect he brought it up in the October and November Go4 conference meetings, if only to cover his back side.

Now he could have presented it in a way it would have certainly been voted down, or the rest might have argued they didn't want to irritate or upset Desnar, with Clyntahn probably arguing most strongly not to rock the powers that be.

It may also be that he's been proven right again, even if he wanted the AoJ to fail, which we don't know.

Considering whether it was the whole Go4 that dropped the ball, again quite possible as you cite, we've seen it happen before.

The last Go4 conference we saw was at the beginning of MTaT about the SoS, but Trynair wasn't mentioned in the post GCR meeting, though he may have been there.

If we get only one Go4 conference in HFQ, when and what should it be about?

Should we have a thread about just that?

And watch the thread drift morph into Clyntahn's approval of Zeppelins...

L

Randomiser wrote:I think Lyonheart is right about the Temple in some guise hearing of EHM's arrival. However I'm not so sure about the Hierarchy's ability to follow their direction or progress once they got say, 100 miles or so from Siddar City. TL's seeing the columns is unavoidable but no big deal, unless they are in contact with the Temple and can pass reports. Given the depth of hatred and bitterness between the TLs and the rest of Siddarmark I can believe that anyone in the countryside controlled by Siddarmark who was even remotely suspected of being a TL spy has been dealt with with extreme prejudice by his neighbours.

As for the Desnairian logistics. Duchairn has been very busy on a whole lot of fronts; canal fixing, housing and supplying the MHoGatA, sorting out steel and armament production, supplying Kaitswyrth and (the guy Green Valley is about to surprise), NTM caring for the poor in Zion and progressing the plot he thinks about cryptically from time to time. He may just have dropped this ball.

On the other hand, we have certainly seen in the past how all of the GoF have had critical info which they just haven't appreciated or have managed to ignore because it didn't fit their presuppositions. Think of the reports from Thirsk and the Tarotisian admiral after the first round of naval battles; the GoF went right ahead building a new galley fleet at a huge waste of time and money despite having all the evidence they needed that it would be useless. They are very competent, after a fashion, but not infallible.

Another factor is that we don't seem to have seen a GoF conference for a fair while so we don't know quite what they were thinking or doing.

You guys are over looking the fact that then RSA and ICA have been using deceptive tactics when disguising their troop movements. What if the RSA/ICA are taking a page out of WWII Operation Fortitude with the FUSAG. The Safeholdian equivalent of inflatable tanks, wooden aircraft, fake army camps, dummy landing craft and false radio traffic. I believe some of this was speculated upon in LAMA. Such as having RSA units march past wearing ICA uniforms or sending the same units march past the same point several times. What if the ICA units sent to Hanth are still technically in Old Provence. High Mount could be as far as the church knows cleaning out Midhold and Rolling's provinces or could be on their way to reinforce Glacierheart.

rakenan wrote:I think the critical piece in the formation of a new axis of power within the Temple is Major Phandys. He gained Clyntahn's favor without doing anything that would really confirm his loyalty to Clyntahn.

Yes, he led the guard force sent to arrest the Wylsyn brothers, and killed Samyl (I think) in single combat. Samyl had already killed his brother to avoid torture, and honestly, Phandys did the absolute utmost to favor Samyl's interests over Clyntahn's. Rayno specifically stated that even if the brothers had escaped, they would have been quickly run down and captured, Phandys gave them a clean and painless death.

Since then he's followed Duchairn around and confirmed the truth - that he was doing nothing but indulge his guilty conscience by trying to help the poor of Zion. Had he not, a more fanatical guard might well have been appointed who would fabricate a story that would get Duchairn killed.

I think that if there is any force in Zion or the Temple that can be a swing player in the confrontation between Clyntahn and whatever vestiges of sanity remain within the Temple, Phandys will be its leader.

Of course, we have had no real internal PoV scenes from Phandys that bear on his ultimate loyalties. At the same time, he has shown a remarkable level venom - remarkably low, I mean - toward everybody who is not Clyntahn or one of his toadies, if he is really one of Clyntahn's supporters. They seem to be very much of a kind, honestly, and Phandys doesn't seem to fit very well. Shaped by Clyntahn in Clyntahn's own image Phandys is not.

Who is Phandys loyal to? Well there is this super secret almost millennium old Order of Saint Kody. Just a thought. The Order has had many years to place agents deeply into almost every Temple Organization.