Unexplored sea approaches to the Temple Lands?

n7axw wrote:I think your logic works better if you isolate Zion from the temple. Enter with your force into Zion and surround the temple itself rather than the city with your lines about a quarter to half mile from the perimeter of the temple. Evacuate the city itself and wait for the denizens of the temple to wave a white flag or starve.

Don

That is exactly what you would have to do since any food in the city would immediately be seized for the temple. Until recently, the temple had demonstrated every winter exactly how compassionate they were and I can only think that they would trevett to that mode should the city be placed under siege.

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think your logic works better if you isolate Zion from the temple. Enter with your force into Zion and surround the temple itself rather than the city with your lines about a quarter to half mile from the perimeter of the temple. Evacuate the city itself and wait for the denizens of the temple to wave a white flag or starve.

Don

That is exactly what you would have to do since any food in the city would immediately be seized for the temple. Until recently, the temple had demonstrated every winter exactly how compassionate they were and I can only think that they would trevett to that mode should the city be placed under siege.

It would all depend on how fast the Alliance force could move from their landing. The city itself is pretty much undefended since Clytahn decided he didn't want rival guard forces around in significant numbers. So rather than fighting their way in, it would be a matter of moving in and cutting off the city from the temple itself. I could visualize the inquisition as having very little time to confiscate food before the hammer came down.

The mentality is that it is inconceivable that Zion could be attacked to start with. So chances are there will be no effective preparation against it.

Don

The primary problem with attacking Zion from the sea (read: Hsing-Wu's Passage), is that said sea is frozen SOLID half the year. Try to hit the Temple from that direction risks your ships getting stuck in ice if you're even a little late.

It's be like Napoleon and Hitler trying to attack Russia and then getting smacked by the Russian Winter. Only for Charis it'd be worse because ships can't move through ice.

The overland route ironically is safer, largely because Charis has already demonstrated a solid grasp on winter logistics and mobility with its land armies.

evilauthor wrote:The primary problem with attacking Zion from the sea (read: Hsing-Wu's Passage), is that said sea is frozen SOLID half the year. Try to hit the Temple from that direction risks your ships getting stuck in ice if you're even a little late.

It's be like Napoleon and Hitler trying to attack Russia and then getting smacked by the Russian Winter. Only for Charis it'd be worse because ships can't move through ice.

The thought has occurred to me that a submersible of some sort could go under the ice blocking Hsing-Wu's passage to attack at a time when the Go4 would consider a sea based attack impossible. It wouldn't take a huge force to at least remove any fortifications built against a land attack to open a path for a more conventional attack force to take the city and besiege the Temple.

A few thoughts.

One, with the limits of technology on Safehold, a submersible could easily be a death trap. IIRC the CSA submersible crew died after they successful their mission.

Two, the ice on Lake Pei, south of Zion, was thick enough for ice boats to travel on it. Just how thick would the ice be on Hsing-Wu's Passage? Would the submersible crew be able to break though the ice to launch their attack at Zion?

Three, Hsing-Wu's Passage isn't a short length. Could a submersible be able to safely travel the entire length? Would the crew be able to break though the ice to get additional air?

Four, without being able to surface (due to the ice) to get their bearings, how would the submersible crew be able to navigate?

Five, how many people could the submersible carry? How many people would be needed to carry out the attack?

In short, for the submersible attack to be successful, it seems that it would require high technology. The crew would have to be Inner Circle and that would limit the number involved.

Weird Harold wrote:

evilauthor wrote:The primary problem with attacking Zion from the sea (read: Hsing-Wu's Passage), is that said sea is frozen SOLID half the year. Try to hit the Temple from that direction risks your ships getting stuck in ice if you're even a little late.

It's be like Napoleon and Hitler trying to attack Russia and then getting smacked by the Russian Winter. Only for Charis it'd be worse because ships can't move through ice.

The thought has occurred to me that a submersible of some sort could go under the ice blocking Hsing-Wu's passage to attack at a time when the Go4 would consider a sea based attack impossible. It wouldn't take a huge force to at least remove any fortifications built against a land attack to open a path for a more conventional attack force to take the city and besiege the Temple.

DrakBibliophile wrote:A few thoughts.

One, with the limits of technology on Safehold, a submersible could easily be a death trap. IIRC the CSA submersible crew died after they successful their mission.

The crew of the CSS Hunley died of unknown causes, but are presumed to have suffered some sort of damage from proximity to the spar torpedo used in the attack

I would expect Charis to do better than pedal-power for a submersible and better than a warning candle for dealing with CO2 build-up.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Two, the ice on Lake Pei, south of Zion, was thick enough for ice boats to travel on it. Just how thick would the ice be on Hsing-Wu's Passage? Would the submersible crew be able to break though the ice to launch their attack at Zion?

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Three, Hsing-Wu's Passage isn't a short length. Could a submersible be able to safely travel the entire length? Would the crew be able to break though the ice to get additional air?

See above: Even if it isn't advisable for security reasons, there shouldn't be any need for additional air; Charis has a fairly modern peneumatics capability and should be able to provide pressurized air for breathing over long periods.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Four, without being able to surface (due to the ice) to get their bearings, how would the submersible crew be able to navigate?

A Charis-tech submersible would have to have view-ports and some means of lighting to travel under the ice. View-ports are no big problem, lighting might be.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Five, how many people could the submersible carry? How many people would be needed to carry out the attack?

How many it could carry would depend on how many it is designed to carry. I would WAG a submersible optimized to deliver a light infantry company with a week's supplies -- call it 150 bodies including crew. It wouldn't make sense to put the entire landing party in one submersible, so multiple boats would be used regardless of individual capacity

DrakBibliophile wrote:In short, for the submersible attack to be successful, it seems that it would require high technology. The crew would have to be Inner Circle and that would limit the number involved.

The only high-tech that would be really useful would be navigation under the ice and that only requires one or two inner circle types to make command decisions.

A Pneumatic powered submersible is easily possible; one with the range/endurance to travel Hsing-Wu's Passage under the ice is more difficult, but not entirely impossible. Some propulsion other than pneumatic is also possible -- even pedal power once Oxygen and CO2 limitations are conquered.

Weird Harold wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:A few thoughts.

One, with the limits of technology on Safehold, a submersible could easily be a death trap. IIRC the CSA submersible crew died after they successful their mission.

The crew of the CSS Hunley died of unknown causes, but are presumed to have suffered some sort of damage from proximity to the spar torpedo used in the attack

I would expect Charis to do better than pedal-power for a submersible and better than a warning candle for dealing with CO2 build-up.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Two, the ice on Lake Pei, south of Zion, was thick enough for ice boats to travel on it. Just how thick would the ice be on Hsing-Wu's Passage? Would the submersible crew be able to break though the ice to launch their attack at Zion?

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Three, Hsing-Wu's Passage isn't a short length. Could a submersible be able to safely travel the entire length? Would the crew be able to break though the ice to get additional air?

See above: Even if it isn't advisable for security reasons, there shouldn't be any need for additional air; Charis has a fairly modern peneumatics capability and should be able to provide pressurized air for breathing over long periods.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Four, without being able to surface (due to the ice) to get their bearings, how would the submersible crew be able to navigate?

A Charis-tech submersible would have to have view-ports and some means of lighting to travel under the ice. View-ports are no big problem, lighting might be.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Five, how many people could the submersible carry? How many people would be needed to carry out the attack?

How many it could carry would depend on how many it is designed to carry. I would WAG a submersible optimized to deliver a light infantry company with a week's supplies -- call it 150 bodies including crew. It wouldn't make sense to put the entire landing party in one submersible, so multiple boats would be used regardless of individual capacity

DrakBibliophile wrote:In short, for the submersible attack to be successful, it seems that it would require high technology. The crew would have to be Inner Circle and that would limit the number involved.

The only high-tech that would be really useful would be navigation under the ice and that only requires one or two inner circle types to make command decisions.

A Pneumatic powered submersible is easily possible; one with the range/endurance to travel Hsing-Wu's Passage under the ice is more difficult, but not entirely impossible. Some propulsion other than pneumatic is also possible -- even pedal power once Oxygen and CO2 limitations are conquered.

All I have to say Harold is you are completely ignorant and dumb as rock when it comes to submarine under ice operations.

1)Subs have to be able to dive deep, ice can extend 6-800 ft below the surface eg look at an ice cube in a glass of water how much is above and how much is below the surface.

2)Moderne subs use a vertical scan sonar commonly referred to as an "Ice Machine" to scan upwards to look for the thinnest portions of the ice pack.

3)Modern subs also usually make the arctic surfacings and transits in summer when the ice is the thinnest.

I would expect Charis to do better than pedal-power for a submersible and better than a warning candle for dealing with CO2 build-up.

Without electric power? Be serious; maximum you could obtain for propulsion is some sort of air-indepentend thermal engine based on some chemical reaction to produce heat, and maximum you could arm it is a pneumatic gun.

Modern subs don't have any problems breaking through pack ice. As long as the passage and harbor don't freeze all the way to the bottom, breaking through shouldn't be a mission killer.

Modern subs. With nuclear reactors and thousands of tonns of ultra-hard hull. Not something that Charis could obtain untils the "Rakurai" is in service.

See above: Even if it isn't advisable for security reasons, there shouldn't be any need for additional air; Charis has a fairly modern peneumatics capability and should be able to provide pressurized air for breathing over long periods.

The air is a lesser problem than propulsion, but still a problem. How many compressed air do you planned to obtain?

I guess I think that the amphibious landing would work better. You don't do it at a time wken the ice would be a factor. In fact you don't do it while there are still major enemy armies left in the field to come up your backside.

The purpose of doing it would be to achieve overwhelming tactical surprise while other armies enter the Temple Lands and march on Zion by more conventional means.

Supply could indeed be an issue, although Zion has to be supplied every winter. It should be dealt with by getting as much as possible in via water transport, securing the supply lines by using BGVs mounted dragoons, and getting as many civilians out of the area as soon as possible.

This should not be tried before the AOG is destroyed as a military force, nor should the Harchongese be intact to come to the Temple's rescue.

The potential payoff would be to force an early conclusion to the war by taking the Temple Leadership intact or stimulating that coup that we think Duchairn has been planning.

In response to a previous post, while there are risks here, this isn't Russia where the invaders faced opposing armies which had been driven back but not completely from the field. As for partisan warfare, the risk would be somewhat greater, but probably manageable unless allowed to drag out too long. Both Napoleon and Hitler made the mistake of leaving undefeated enemies at their back when they invaded Russia. At least as much as anything else, that proved their undoing.

Don