War final objective? Which front is main axis's of advance?

n7axw wrote:
But where is the control point for the OBS? Is it under the temple? That does seem likely. But it is still possible that Langhorne's flagship wasn't dumped into the sun after all and that it will be returning with both control point and sleepers on board. For that matter what are the sleepers? They can't be actual people preserved in kryou...its been too long for that.

Hm. I'm not so sure. Remember: OWL in the company of only one clearly-not-scientist managed to reverse-engineering PICA.

What if the sleepers do something like that: started the series of VR-research for several decades (they have at least a century on Safehold) and solve the problem of long-range cryosleep?

Just a closing comment on the OBS. I don't think it is set to respond on automatic. It has to be told what to do. If it had been on automatic, it should have responded to the introduction of steam on those islands where Merlin conducted his test at the beginning of HFAF.

Maybe. Or maybe the use of steam-powered systems was not considered dangerous by Langhorne and Cie, or it was dismissed, and thus never made the list of Things-that-have-to-be-destroyed-upond-detection that was entered into the OBS control system.

Also, the destruction of the SSK's original convent implies exercise of will. What the sisters had done was to irritate the powers that be by refusing to disband. The good sisters certainly weren't messing around with the presciptions, at any rate.

Well, we know that, at that time, some members of the command crew were still alive. They probably were able to take manual control of the OBS even if it was set to function primarily on an automatic control managed by an AI...

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
But where is the control point for the OBS? Is it under the temple? That does seem likely. But it is still possible that Langhorne's flagship wasn't dumped into the sun after all and that it will be returning with both control point and sleepers on board. For that matter what are the sleepers? They can't be actual people preserved in kryou...its been too long for that.

Hm. I'm not so sure. Remember: OWL in the company of only one clearly-not-scientist managed to reverse-engineering PICA.

What if the sleepers do something like that: started the series of VR-research for several decades (they have at least a century on Safehold) and solve the problem of long-range cryosleep?

You've got a good point. Reinforcing it would be that that the speed at which an AI could process data in virtual reality. The biggest objection to your point would be the antitech bias of the Langhorne faction of the crew. Would they have considered it? But that being said, it could be a possibility. Again, good point.

Don

OlorinNight wrote:

Just a closing comment on the OBS. I don't think it is set to respond on automatic. It has to be told what to do. If it had been on automatic, it should have responded to the introduction of steam on those islands where Merlin conducted his test at the beginning of HFAF.

Maybe. Or maybe the use of steam-powered systems was not considered dangerous by Langhorne and Cie, or it was dismissed, and thus never made the list of Things-that-have-to-be-destroyed-upond-detection that was entered into the OBS control system.

Also, the destruction of the SSK's original convent implies exercise of will. What the sisters had done was to irritate the powers that be by refusing to disband. The good sisters certainly weren't messing around with the presciptions, at any rate.

Well, we know that, at that time, some members of the command crew were still alive. They probably were able to take manual control of the OBS even if it was set to function primarily on an automatic control managed by an AI...

Had I been setting up automatic control, the threshold would have been the prescriptions. We have solid text evidence that steam is in violation. And Merlin was wondering about gunpowder. I'm sticking to my guess with the while acknowledging that you have a very valid point.

Don

Hi Dilandu,

We haven't had any textev that Langhorne's group was so scientifically inclined as to perfect things the federation was working hard on and hadn't.

If the ship was accelerated into a high light speed loop [!?] back to Safehold in 1000 years taking only 300 subjective years so the cryo didn't need to be enhanced, the Gbabba probably would have noticed this unlikely object some time ago and bad things happened.

If they are aboard, though RFC said the ship was dumped into the sun in some post IIRC; but whether in the ship or under the temple, reviving every 300 years might be what they've done, having the ship's industrial module [or the temple's] rebuild the cryo each time might be one solution.

From what they may have seen 200-300 years ago, things weren't that bad.

L

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
But where is the control point for the OBS? Is it under the temple? That does seem likely. But it is still possible that Langhorne's flagship wasn't dumped into the sun after all and that it will be returning with both control point and sleepers on board. For that matter what are the sleepers? They can't be actual people preserved in kryou...its been too long for that.

Hm. I'm not so sure. Remember: OWL in the company of only one clearly-not-scientist managed to reverse-engineering PICA.

What if the sleepers do something like that: started the series of VR-research for several decades (they have at least a century on Safehold) and solve the problem of long-range cryosleep?

Hi don,

Given the heat and smoke signature of steam can be other non violation items, I could see why electricity might be a more easily identified violation and trigger.

L

n7axw wrote:

OlorinNight wrote:**Just a closing comment on the OBS. I don't think it is set to respond on automatic. It has to be told what to do. If it had been on automatic, it should have responded to the introduction of steam on those islands where Merlin conducted his test at the beginning of HFAF.*quote*

Maybe. Or maybe the use of steam-powered systems was not considered dangerous by Langhorne and Cie, or it was dismissed, and thus never made the list of Things-that-have-to-be-destroyed-upond-detection that was entered into the OBS control system.

*quote*Also, the destruction of the SSK's original convent implies exercise of will. What the sisters had done was to irritate the powers that be by refusing to disband. The good sisters certainly weren't messing around with the presciptions, at any rate.
*quote*

Well, we know that, at that time, some members of the command crew were still alive. They probably were able to take manual control of the OBS even if it was set to function primarily on an automatic control managed by an AI...

Had I been setting up automatic control, the threshold would have been the prescriptions. We have solid text evidence that steam is in violation. And Merlin was wondering about gunpowder. I'm sticking to my guess with the while acknowledging that you have a very valid point.

Don

To the best of my knowledge, David Weber has only said that Langhorne's ship is gone not that it "went into Safehold's sun".

lyonheart wrote:Hi Dilandu,

We haven't had any textev that Langhorne's group was so scientifically inclined as to perfect things the federation was working hard on and hadn't.

If the ship was accelerated into a high light speed loop [!?] back to Safehold in 1000 years taking only 300 subjective years so the cryo didn't need to be enhanced, the Gbabba probably would have noticed this unlikely object some time ago and bad things happened.

If they are aboard, though RFC said the ship was dumped into the sun in some post IIRC; but whether in the ship or under the temple, reviving every 300 years might be what they've done, having the ship's industrial module [or the temple's] rebuild the cryo each time might be one solution.

From what they may have seen 200-300 years ago, things weren't that bad.

L

Well, so maybe the "Hamilcar" is the part of a "Ark II" plan?

Langhorne and Co assumed that the colony will not be noticed by Gbaba as long as the colony would remain on pre-industrial level. But in the end, Gbaba may come across a colony by chance, just passing by.

Maybe someone still thought about a reservation, in case the doctrine wouldn't work? For example, they may put passive automatic station in star systems near Safehold, programmed to detect Gbaba, if they appear somewhere near and signal to Safehold and "Hamilcar". After that, the ship would reactivate itslelf, pick up as many of the population as it could and blast off in space - and the "Rakurai" would do the rest, obliterating all remained human presence on the planet and self-destructing themselves.

So, when the Gbaba appear in system they found only the blasted world and no clues that the humanity really survive. And the "Hamilcar" would proceed to some other system with the attempt to restart the original plan.

n7axw wrote:
Had I been setting up automatic control, the threshold would have been the prescriptions. We have solid text evidence that steam is in violation. And Merlin was wondering about gunpowder. I'm sticking to my guess with the while acknowledging that you have a very valid point.

Don

For that to be true, you need a system that is able to detect and recognize violation of the Proscriptions. But some of those violations may be to small (from a signal point of view) to be detected and recognized efficiently.

The easier way would be to implement a few clearly recognizable signal that need to be crushed: use of electricity, use of nuclear power,... Huge concentration of energy on very localised spot...

For all we know, the use of steam may generate a signal that could be confused with a small forest fire...

No need to describe the face of the planet if it was the case and the OBS had been programmed to eradicate steam use.

I totally agree that, from the point of view of the command crew, crushing all violation of the Prescriptions would be ideal. But it would probably require the deployment of sensing device on the surface of the planet (or really close to it) in order to catch the most subtle (meaning the least detectable) violations.

And with a system like that, you don't want something that is too much "trigger happy", otherwise you may well end up terminating the whole population, over time... So you need something that will shoot only on very clear and demonstrated violations of the Prescriptions, aka, something so far away from the desired technology level that no mistake is possible when the OBS start shooting.

OlorinNight, totally agree.