HMS Madrigal

Rereading Honor of the Queen again, just had an interesting thought, related to the fact that the Graysons have honored Courvosier with an entire class named after him, and also Jason Alvarez, the commander, but...

After the fact, shoulda been done previously yada yada...

Perhaps Honor or another officer begins a petition for the "HMS Madrigal should be a Ship of the List", and the lead ship for any DD class be named/renamed accordingly..."

Yes/no?

Why? Do you have a good argument in favor of this change? Remember, Grayson has plenty of other fine officers who have offered their lives in defense of Grayson since then.

I'm not arguing against the idea, but I think you need to argue for the idea first.

SWM wrote:Why? Do you have a good argument in favor of this change? Remember, Grayson has plenty of other fine officers who have offered their lives in defense of Grayson since then.

I'm not arguing against the idea, but I think you need to argue for the idea first.

Indeed. Also - this is an argument for the RMN to put "Madrigal" on their list, yes? In that case, the argument would have to be that Madrigal's last stand and example is in the league of (e.g.) Fearless, Nike, Warlock for the RMN.

If it's for Grayson, we'd need evidence that they've got a tradition like that, or change the proposal to being naming a GSN ship class "Madrigal". That'd strike me as entirely plausible - ditto "Troubadour" and "Fearless", for that matter - but it's a different proposal.

JeffEngel wrote:

SWM wrote:Why? Do you have a good argument in favor of this change? Remember, Grayson has plenty of other fine officers who have offered their lives in defense of Grayson since then.

I'm not arguing against the idea, but I think you need to argue for the idea first.

Indeed. Also - this is an argument for the RMN to put "Madrigal" on their list, yes? In that case, the argument would have to be that Madrigal's last stand and example is in the league of (e.g.) Fearless, Nike, Warlock for the RMN.

If it's for Grayson, we'd need evidence that they've got a tradition like that, or change the proposal to being naming a GSN ship class "Madrigal". That'd strike me as entirely plausible - ditto "Troubadour" and "Fearless", for that matter - but it's a different proposal.

While what happened to the crew of Madrigal was horrific, it is not clear that the final battle of HMS Madrigal was something that should be held up as an example of the "Saganami Tradition" unlike the final battles of the CL Fearless, or the CA Fearless at second Yeltsin.

--snipping--

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SWM wrote:Why? Do you have a good argument in favor of this change? Remember, Grayson has plenty of other fine officers who have offered their lives in defense of Grayson since then.

I'm not arguing against the idea, but I think you need to argue for the idea first.

While what happened to the crew of Madrigal was horrific, it is not clear that the final battle of HMS Madrigal was something that should be held up as an example of the "Saganami Tradition" unlike the final battles of the CL Fearless, or the CA Fearless at second Yeltsin.

Skipped Jeff's bit briefly, but I think he's pointing towards the reason to put the Madrigal on the List isn't because of what happened to them after they were turned over to Blackbird base, it's for their defense of the Grayson fleet during and after the initial Masadan ambush, resulting in enough time for CA-286 Fearless, Troubadour, and Apollo to return to Yeltsin space for the actions which followed.

I think that shows the best of the Saganami tradition as stated by Honor herself in other places, and compares favorably to Hexapuma and the other ships in defense of the Talbott Quadrant (not yet fully a Manticoran set of systems) and at Monica.

Leaving it to y'all to make the comparisons and the arguments...

fallsfromtrees wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:
Indeed. Also - this is an argument for the RMN to put "Madrigal" on their list, yes? In that case, the argument would have to be that Madrigal's last stand and example is in the league of (e.g.) Fearless, Nike, Warlock for the RMN.

If it's for Grayson, we'd need evidence that they've got a tradition like that, or change the proposal to being naming a GSN ship class "Madrigal". That'd strike me as entirely plausible - ditto "Troubadour" and "Fearless", for that matter - but it's a different proposal.

While what happened to the crew of Madrigal was horrific, it is not clear that the final battle of HMS Madrigal was something that should be held up as an example of the "Saganami Tradition" unlike the final battles of the CL Fearless, or the CA Fearless at second Yeltsin.

So split the difference. Instead of a permanently commissioned ship, name a groundside or spacebased facility such as "the XXXX Officer's Course at Madrigal Hall."
Also there would be examples from Earth history for honoring non-nation vessels: the USS Canberra after the Battle of Savo Island.

Of course HMS Madrigal belongs on the list. Her gallant defense of Grayson for the honor of the Queen is in the finest traditions of the RMN and Raoul Courvesior (sp) belongs with Edward Saganami on the list of RMN's most honored.

I'm surprised it hasn't been attended to already...

Don

n7axw wrote:Of course HMS Madrigal belongs on the list. Her gallant defense of Grayson for the honor of the Queen is in the finest traditions of the RMN and Raoul Courvosier belongs with Edward Saganami on the list of RMN's most honored.

I'm surprised it hasn't been attended to already...

Don

Well, it certainly gets my vote. There wasn't a bit of flinch in the Admiral or the Captain (Jason Alvarez) either in terms of doing the right thing, and no doubt the crew kept doing it until they were pretty much floating in life pods etc. in space. That's as much as any crew can do in defense of innocent people, and that's the BEST part of the RMN (and Western military traditions) as well.

What not to say that HMS Madrigal isn't already on the List and First Yeltsin was just added to her Battle Honours off screen?

It may just have been we haven't encountered the replacement in story yet (though it would be nice to).

As for Admiral Courvosier, again it could all of happened off screen, after all there's a reference to Young "celebrating" the Admiral death.

Garth 2 wrote:What not to say that HMS Madrigal isn't already on the List and First Yeltsin was just added to her Battle Honours off screen?

It may just have been we haven't encountered the replacement in story yet (though it would be nice to).

As for Admiral Courvosier, again it could all of happened off screen, after all there's a reference to Young "celebrating" the Admiral death.

If it hasn't happened, I wonder if it was due to the influence of Honor's enemies such as the Youngs (using the North Hollow files), the Housemans, Janacek et. al, or if the House of Lords even gets a say in how a ship is nominated and joins the list. That seems less likely given CL-56 Fearless being added to the list, by the way, but then again we don't know how it happens, do we? That would be a nice inclusion into any anthology story or snippet that RFC might include in a future pearl or book.