Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests

Henke — to do, or not to do.

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:46 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

In memory of the immortal Joan Rivers ...

Can we talk?


Every time I read the following passage, it leaves me feeling dirty ... guilty. I don't know why it does. Perhaps I need therapy because of it. It's not so much that I think Michelle Henke did anything wrongly. I don't ... I think. The truth is that I'm not certain what I think. All I know is this incident leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I expect more from the Manties. To me, this tactic smells of moral stink. It just rubs me the wrong way and I haven't, can't, completely come to terms with it.

I know that Commander Horn was faced with a dilemma.
1. Die with the ship, fighting.
2. Surrender the ship (and classified hardware). But save all crew.
3. Abandon as many as possible in life pods and scuttle.

There is no commander that is worth his weight in brass who wants to be an Elvis Santino. Yet what is the difference in Santino stupidly losing all hands and ships to Peep fire versus losing half of the crew and all ships to your own scuttle? So is that only a half as bad decision or a half better decision?

Santino was advised to flee the system and live to fight another day. Now that option wasn't available here, except the option to live. However, duty requires preventing classified hardware from falling into enemy hands, which could later result in a more horrendous loss of life. Therefore, after as much reasoning, I understand the decision to save as many lives as time and life pods will allow, then scuttling your ships to prevent enemy capture simultaneously sacrificing your remaining crew. So far so good.

Yet, Henke's decision to pull her ole' "okie doke" could have been misconstrued as unnecessary immoral malice — lacking in decency — indicative of a less than honorable opponent. Except for certain Peep brass, Theisman, Tourville, Foraker, etc., the Manties (Queen included) have been harping on the Peep's lack of honor. Yet Henke's ploy may indeed, itself, lack a bit of honor. Commander Horn was given lots of time to abandon ship. Time the Peeps were generous in giving. Her actions — facing a different Admiral on another day — could have garnered the wrath of a scorned enemy seeking retribution against the remaining enemy floating about in life pods. It just seems that committing an act against an enemy — that could be perceived as dishonorable — yet expecting that same enemy to itself act in an honorable fashion collecting you and your spacers floating in life pods somehow seems wrong, unnecessarily balsy, a bit arrogant and ... well ... stupid.

There was a time that Havenites would't bother with search and rescue. Henke herself realized that, yet why rock the boat or shake the tree?

How do any of you feel about it? Or, if you're devoid of emotion like the Vulcan Spock ... how do you "feel?"

Just interested in the color of your honorvices.


Storm From The Shadows
What it really came down to, Michelle thought sadly, was the fact that it was now too late to save the ship even if Tigh somehow managed to get the after ring back. They'd lost too much lead on Bogey Two. In less than twenty minutes, those six modern superdreadnoughts were going to enter their own MDM range from Ajax. When they did that, the ship was going to die, one way or the other. The only way to prevent that would have been to surrender her to the enemy, which would just happen to hand all of that invaluable technological data and examples of modern systems over to Haven.

I wonder if Horn's cold-blooded enough to give the scuttle order? Could she really order the ship blown up knowing over half her crew would go with her?

The fact that no court of inquiry or court-martial convened in Manticore would ever condemn her for honorably surrendering her vessel made the commander's dilemma even more hellish. For that matter, if she didn't surrender—if she went ahead and destroyed her own ship, with so many of her people still aboard—her name would undoubtedly be vilified by any number of people who hadn't been there, hadn't had to face the same decision or make the same call.

But she's not going to have to do that, Michelle thought almost calmly. If she tries to fight that much firepower, the Peeps will take care of it for her.

"If your ship will still be combat capable, Captain," she said formally to Horn, "then by all means, I concur. Given the tactical situation, evacuating everyone you can by pod is clearly the right decision."

"Thank you, Ma'am," Horn said softly. The decision had been hers, but her gratitude for Michelle's concurrence was both obvious and deep. Then she drew a deep breath. "If you and your staff will evacuate Flag Bridge now, Ma'am, there'll be time—"

"No, Captain," Michelle interrupted quietly. Horn looked at her, and she shook her head. "Those pods will be used by the personnel assigned to them or closest to them at the moment the evacuation order is given," Michelle continued steadily.

For a moment, she thought Horn was going to argue. For that matter, Horn had the authority to order Michelle and her staff off the ship, and to use force to accomplish that end, if necessary. But as she looked into the commander's eyes, she saw that Horn understood. If Michelle Henke's flagship was going to die with people trapped aboard it, then she was going to be one of those people. It made absolutely no sense from any logical perspective, but that didn't matter.

"Yes, Ma'am," Horn said, and produced something almost like a smile. "Now, if you'll excuse me, Admiral, I have some orders to issue," she said.

"By all means, Captain. Clear."

"You know," Lieutenant Commander Stackpole said, "I know we're pretty much screwed, Ma'am, but I really would like to take some of them with us."

There was something remarkably like whimsy in his tone, and Michelle wondered if he was aware of that . . . or how ironic it was.

Ironic or not, a part of her agreed with him. Bogey Two had continued its pursuit of the rest of the task force only until it became obvious that it would be impossible to overtake Imperator and the other ships in company with her. At that point, Bogey Two—all of Bogey Two—had altered course to pursue Ajax, instead, with acceleration advantage of almost 2.5 KPS2. Thanks to her own damage, and the fact that Bogey Two had been able to begin cutting the chord of Ajax's course after abandoning the pursuit of the rest of the task force, the pursuing Havenites had already been able to build a velocity advantage of over two thousand KPS. With that sort of overtake velocity and such an acceleration advantage over a ship which couldn't escape into hyper even if she managed to get across the hyper limit before she was intercepted, this chase could have only one outcome.

Maximum range for Havenite MDMs was just under sixty-one million kilometers, and the range was already down to little more than sixty-three million. It wouldn't be long now, unless . . .

"You know," Michelle said, "I wonder just how close these people are willing to come before they pull the trigger?"

"Well, they must know we've loaded our battlecruiser pods with Mark 16s," Stackpole pointed out, turning to look over his shoulder at her. "I can't believe they'd be interested in coming into our range!"

"I certainly wouldn't be, in their place," Michelle agreed. "Still, their hard numbers on the Mark 16's performance have to be a little iffy. Oh," she waved one hand in the air before her, "I know we've used them before, but the only time they've ever seen them used at maximum powered range was right here, in Fire Plan Gamma, and that had that ballistic component right in the middle of it. It's remotely possible Bogey Two hasn't had the benefit of a full tactical analysis yet."

"You're suggesting they might just come into our range, after all, Ma'am?" Stackpole sounded like a junior officer doing his best not to sound overtly dubious.

"It's possible, I suppose," Michelle said. Then she snorted. "On the other hand, it's entirely possible I'm grasping at straws, too!"

"Well, Ma'am," Stackpole said, "I hate to rain on your parade, but I can think of at least one damned good reason for them to be doing what they're doing." She cocked an eyebrow at him, and he shrugged. "If I were them, and if I did have a pretty good idea what our maximum powered envelope was, I wouldn't be in any hurry. I'd want to get as close as I could and still stay outside our envelope before I fired. Of course, if we want to start engaging them at longer ranges, with a ballistic component in the flight, they'll probably shoot back pretty damned fast."

"I know," Michelle said.

She smiled thinly, then tipped back in her command chair. It was remarkable, actually, she mused. Whatever the Peeps were up to, she was going to die sometime in the next hour or so, and yet she felt oddly calm. She hadn't resigned herself to death, didn't want to die—perhaps, deep down inside, some survival center simply refuse to accept the possibility, even now—and yet her forebrain knew it was going to happen. And despite that, her mind was clear, with a sort of bittersweet serenity. There were a lot of things she'd meant to do that she'd never have the chance to get around to now, and she felt a deep surge of regret for that. And, for that matter, she felt an even deeper, darker regret for the other men and women trapped aboard Ajax with her. Yet this was a possible ending she'd accepted the day she entered the Academy, the day she swore her oath as an officer in the Royal Manticoran Navy. She couldn't pretend she hadn't known it might come, and if she had to die, she could not have done it in better company than with the crew of HMS Ajax.

She considered the men and women who'd escaped aboard the battlecruiser's remaining operational life pods, wondered what they were thinking as they awaited rescue by their enemies. There'd been a time when the Manticoran Navy had been none too sure Havenite ships would bother with search-and-rescue after a battle, yet despite the sneak attack with which the Republic had opened this war, no one on either side had ever doubted that the victor in any engagement would do her very best to rescue as many survivors from both sides as possible.

So we've made some progress, at least, she told herself sardonically. Then she gave herself a mental shake. The last thing she should be doing at a moment like this was feeling anything except gratitude that the people Commander Horn had gotten off Ajax were going to survive!

We really have come a long way since Basilisk Station and First Hancock, she told herself. In fact—

"John." She let her command chair snap back upright and turned it to face the tac officer.

"Yes, Ma'am?" Something about her tone brought his own chair around to face her squarely, and his eyes narrowed.

"These people just finished borrowing Her Grace's tactics from Sidemore, right?"

"That's one way to put it," Stackpole agreed, his eyes narrowing further.

"Well, in that case," Michelle said with a razor-like smile, "I think it just might be time for us to borrow her tactics from Hancock Station. Why don't you and I kick this idea around with Commander Horn for a couple of minutes? After all," her smile grew thinner yet, "it's not like any of us have anything better to do, is it?"

"I like it, Your Grace," Alexandra Horn said grimly from Michelle's com screen.

"According to our best figures from here," Michelle said, "we've got roughly three hundred pods still on the rails."

"Three hundred and six, Admiral," Commander Dwayne Harrison, who had become Ajax's tactical officer in the same instant Horn had become the battlecruiser's captain, said from behind Horn.

"Just over fifteen minutes to roll all of them, then."

"Yes, Ma'am," Horn agreed. "Use their tractors to limpet them to the hull until we're ready to drop all of them in a single clutch?"

"Exactly. And if we're going to do this, we'd better get started pretty quick," Michelle said.

"Agreed." Horn frowned for a moment, then grimaced. "I've got too much else on my plate right now, Admiral. I think this is something for you and Commander Stackpole to work out with Dwayne while I concentrate on pushing the repair parties."

"I agree, Alex." Michelle nodded firmly, even though she knew Horn was as well aware as she was that all the repairs in the world weren't going to make much difference. Master Chief MaGuire and her repair parties were still fighting to get at least one boat bay cleared, but the bosun's last estimate was that she'd need at least another hour, and probably at least a little longer. It was . . . unlikely, to say the least, that Ajax was going to have that hour.

"Very well, Ma'am." Horn nodded back. "Clear," she said, and Harrison's face replaced hers on both Michelle's and Stackpole's com screens.

The grim pursuit was coming to its inevitable conclusion, Michelle thought. Her belly was like a lump of congealed iron, and she felt almost lightheaded. Fear was a huge part of it, of course—she wasn't insane, after all. And yet excitement, anticipation, gripped her almost as tightly as the fear.

If it's the final shot I'm ever going to get, at least it's going to be a doozy, she told herself tautly. And it looks like I'm actually going to get to see it fired, after all. Hard to believe.

It had become only too evident over the last forty-seven minutes that Stackpole's assessment of the Peep commander's intentions had been accurate. That was how long it had been since Bogey Two had entered its own extreme missile range of Ajax, but the enemy was clearly in no hurry to pull the trigger.

And rightly so, Michelle thought. The Peeps had every advantage there was—numbers, acceleration rate, firepower, counter-missile launchers and laser clusters, and missile range—and they were using them ruthlessly. She was a bit surprised, to be honest, that the enemy had managed to resist the temptation to start firing sooner, but she understood the logic perfectly. As Stackpole had suggested, the Peeps would close to a range at which they remained just outside the powered envelope of Ajax's Mark 16s, then open fire. Or, perhaps, call upon Ajax to surrender, since the situation would have become hopeless. There would have been just about zero probability of even Manticoran missiles getting through Bogey Two's defenses in salvos the size a single Agamemnon could throw and control at any range, but with the need for them to incorporate at least a brief ballistic phase in their approach, the probability would shrink still further. And no matter how good Ajax's missile defenses might be, she was still only a single battlecruiser, and she would be thirty million kilometers inside Bogey Two's maximum range. Light-speed communication lags would be far lower, which would improve both the enemy's fire control and its ability to compensate for Manticore's superior EW.

Of course, there could be a few minor difficulties hidden in that tactical situation, couldn't there? Michelle thought.

She turned her command chair back towards Stackpole once again. Her tactical officer's shoulders were tight, his attention totally focused on his displays, and she smiled at him with a sort of bittersweet regret. He and Harrison had implemented Michelle's brainstorm quickly and efficiently. Now—

Michelle's com beeped softly at her. The sound startled her, and she twitched before she reached down and pressed the acceptance key. Alexandra Horn appeared on her display, and this time there was something very different about the commander's gray eyes. They literally glowed, and she smiled hugely at Michelle.

"Master Chief MaGuire's cleared the after bay, Ma'am!" she announced before her admiral could even speak, and Michelle jerked upright. The bosun and her work parties had continued laboring heroically, but after so long, Michelle—like everyone else aboard Ajax, she was certain—had come to the conclusion that there was simply no way MaGuire's people were going to succeed.

Michelle's eyes darted to the countdown clock blinking steadily towards zero in the corner of her tactical plot, then back to Horn.

"In that case, Alex," she said, "I suggest you start getting our people off right now. Somehow, I don't think the other side's going to be very happy with us in about seven minutes."

No one aboard Ajax had needed their admiral's observation.

The range between the battlecruiser and her overwhelming adversaries was down to little more than 48,600,000 kilometers, which put them far inside the Havenites' engagement envelope. No doubt those SD(P)s astern of them had already deployed multiple patterns of pods, tractored to their hulls inside their wedges, where they wouldn't degrade anyone's acceleration. The Peep commander was no doubt watching his own tactical displays intently, waiting for the first sign that Ajax might change her mind and attempt a long-range missile launch. If he saw one, he would undoubtedly roll his own pods, immediately. And if he didn't see one, he would probably roll them anyway within the next ten to twelve minutes.

Small craft began to launch from the boat bay Master Chief MaGuire and her people had managed—somehow—to get back into service. The bad news was that there weren't very many of those small craft available. The good news was that there were barely three hundred people still aboard the battlecruiser. Of course, for some of those people, getting to the boat bay was going to take a bit longer than for others.

"Admiral," a voice said from Michelle Henke's com. "It's time for you to go, Ma'am."

It was Commander Horn, and Michelle glanced at the display, then shook her head.

"I don't think so, Alex," she said. "I'm a little busy just now."

"Bullshit." The single, succinct word snapped her head back around, and Horn shook her own head, her expression stern. "You don't have a damned thing to do, Admiral. Not anymore. So get your ass off my ship—now!"


Bogey Two kept charging after HMS Ajax. The Havenites' sensor resolution was problematical at best against something as small as a pinnace or a cutter at such an extended range, but the remote arrays they'd sent ahead of them were another matter. Less capable, and with much shorter endurance than their Manticoran counterparts, they'd still had Ajax under close observation for the last half-hour. They were close enough to recognize the impeller wedges of small craft, and to confirm that they were small craft, and not missile pods.

"They're abandoning, Sir."

Admiral Pierre Redmont turned to his tactical officer, one eyebrow quirked.

"It's confirmed, Sir," the tac officer said.

"Damn." The admiral's lips twisted as if he'd just tasted something sour, but he couldn't pretend it was a surprise. Under the circumstances the only thing that qualified as a surprise was that the Manties had waited so long. Obviously, they didn't intend to let him take that ship intact, after all. They were getting their people off before they scuttled.

"We could always order them not to abandon, Sir," the tac officer said quietly. Redmont shot him a sharp look, and the tac officer shrugged. "They're deep inside our range, Sir."

"Yes, they are, Commander," the admiral said just a bit testily. "And they also aren't shooting at us. In fact, they can't shoot at us from here—not effectively enough to make us break a sweat, anyway. And just how do you think Admiral Giscard—or, worse, Admiral Theisman—is going to react if I open fire on a ship that can't even return fire just to keep them from abandoning?"

"Not well, Sir," the commander said after a moment. Then he shook his head with a wry smile. "Not one of my better suggestions, Admiral."

"No, it wasn't," Redmont agreed, but a brief smile of his own took most of the sting from it, and he returned his own attention to his displays.

Michelle Henke and her staff made their way quickly down the passage towards the lift tubes. The passageway itself was already deserted, hatches standing open. The ship was running almost entirely on her remotes as her remaining personnel hurried towards the restored boat bay, and a spike of worry stabbed suddenly through her.

Oh, Jesus! What if the Peeps decide all of this was nothing but a trick? That we could have abandoned any time, but we didn't because—

She started to turn around, reaching for her personal communicator, but it was too late.

* * *

An alarm shrilled suddenly.

The flagship's tactical officer's head jerked up in astonishment as he recognized the sound. It was the proximity alarm, and that was ridiculous! The thought flashed through his brain, but he was an experienced professional. His automatic incredulity didn't keep him from turning almost instantly towards his active sensor section.

"Radar contact!" one of his ratings snapped, but it was too late for the warning to make any difference at all.

Current-generation Manticoran missile pods were extraordinarily stealthy. Against a powered-down missile, active radar detection range was around a million kilometers, give or take. But then, missiles weren't designed to be as stealthy as the pods that carried them, because any attack missile was going to be picked up and tracked on passives with ludicrous ease thanks to the glaring signature of its impeller wedge. Which meant stealth wasn't going to help it very much.

But a missile pod was something else entirely. Especially a pod like the current-generation Manticoran "flatpack" pods with their on-board fusion plants. They'd been designed to be deployed in the system-defense role, as well as in ship-to-ship combat. After all, BuWeaps had decided, it made more sense to build a single pod with the features for both, as long as neither function was compromised. It hugely simplified production and reduced expense, which was a not insignificant consideration in an era of MDM combat.

All of which meant the Havenite radar crews had done extraordinarily well in the first place just to pick up the missile pods HMS Ajax had deployed in a single, massive salvo. The sheer size of the radar target helped, no doubt, despite the stealthiness of the individual pods of which the salvo consisted, and the range was just under nine hundred thousand kilometers when the alarms went off.

Unfortunately, Bogey Two's velocity was up to over twenty-seven thousand kilometers per second, and its starships had been charging directly up Ajax's wake for well over an hour now. The missile pods had been continuing onward at the speed Ajax's velocity had imparted to them at launch, which meant the steadily accelerating units of Bogey Two overflew them at a relative velocity of 19,838 KPS. At that closure rate, Bogey Two had exactly 1.2 minutes to detect and react to them before they found themselves half a million kilometers behind Bogey Two . . . and launched.

There were three hundred and six pods, each loaded with fourteen Mark 16 missiles. Of those forty-two-hundred-plus missiles, a quarter were EW platforms. The remaining thirty-two hundred laser heads were far lighter than the laser heads mounted by capital ship missiles. In fact, they were too light to pose any significant threat to something as heavily armored and protected as a ship of the wall. But Bogey Two's SD(P)s were screened by battlecruisers, and battlecruisers didn't carry that sort of armor.

The Havenite tactical officers had eighty-four seconds to recognize what had happened. Eighty-four seconds to see their displays come alive with thousands of attacking missiles. Despite the stunning surprise, they actually managed to implement their defensive doctrine, but there simply wasn't enough time for that doctrine to be effective.

The hurricane of missiles tore into the Havenite formation. Michelle Henke had indeed taken a page from Honor Harrington's and Mark Sarnow's tactics at the Battle of Hancock Station, and her weapons were far more capable than the ones Manticore had possessed then. Although the Mark 16 hadn't really been designed for use in any area-defense mine role, its sensors were actually superior to those carried by most mines. And Henke had taken advantage of the improvements in reconnaissance platforms and communications links, as well. Along with the missile pods, Ajax had deployed half a dozen Hermes buoys—communications platforms equipped with FTL grav-pulse receivers and light-speed communications lasers. Ghost Rider recon platforms had kept the Havenites under close observation, reporting in near real-time to Ajax, and Ajax had used her own FTL com and the Hermes buoys to feed continuous updates to her waiting missile pods.

Any sort of precise fire control over such a jury rigged control link, with its limited bandwidth and cobbled-up target selection, was impossible, of course. But it was good enough to ensure that each of those missiles had been fed the emissions signatures of the battlecruisers it was supposed to attack. Accuracy might be poor, compared to a standard missile engagement, and the EW platforms and penetration aids were far less effective without proper shipboard updates, but the range was also incredibly short, which gave the defense no time to react. Despite any shortcomings, that huge salvo's accuracy was far greater than anything Haven could possibly have anticipated . . . and not one of its missiles wasted itself against a ship of the wall.

Admiral Redmont swore savagely as the missile storm rampaged through his screen. The missile defense computers did the best they could, and considering how completely surprised their human masters had been and the attack's deadly geometry, that best was actually amazingly good. Which, unfortunately, didn't mean it was even remotely good enough.

There was no time for a counter-missile launch, and the attack from almost directly astern minimized the number of laser clusters which could defend any of the Manticorans' targets. Hundreds of incoming missiles were destroyed, but there were thousands of them, and their targets heaved in agony as lasers stabbed through their sidewalls or blasted directly up the kilts of their wedges. Hulls shattered, belching atmosphere and debris, and the fragile humans crewing those ships burned like straw in a furnace.

Two of Bogey Two's eight battlecruisers died spectacularly, vanishing into blinding fireballs with every single man and woman of their crews as the demonic bomb-pumped lasers stabbed through them again and again and again. The other six survived, but four of them were little more than broken and battered wrecks, wedges down, coasting onward while shocked and stunned survivors fought their way through the wreckage, searching frantically for other survivors in the ruin.

The admiral's jaw muscles ridged as his battlecruisers died. Then he twisted around to glare at his tac officer.

"Open fire!" he snapped.


Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by SWM   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:15 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

I'm not sure what your issue is, cthia. I really can't see it. The Havenites were not holding fire to be kind. The Havenites were not deliberately giving the Ajax time to abandon ship. They were simply being super cautious, and hoping they could capture the ship intact. The decision had already been made that the Ajax would not surrender, so that is not an issue. The Ajax is either going to be destroyed by the Havenites, or self-destruct. The only question is whether the Ajax will try to launch an attack missiles before one of those events happens. In that situation, why would you not launch the pods, if you can figure out a way to do it effectively? (Remember, also, that the decision was made before it became possible to abandon ship.)
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:46 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

SWM wrote:
I'm not sure what your issue is, cthia. I really can't see it. The Havenites were not holding fire to be kind. The Havenites were not deliberately giving the Ajax time to abandon ship. They were simply being super cautious, and hoping they could capture the ship intact. The decision had already been made that the Ajax would not surrender, so that is not an issue. The Ajax is either going to be destroyed by the Havenites, or self-destruct. The only question is whether the Ajax will try to launch an attack missiles before one of those events happens. In that situation, why would you not launch the pods, if you can figure out a way to do it effectively? (Remember, also, that the decision was made before it became possible to abandon ship.)

Frankly SWM, I can't quite put a finger on my problem with this act either. All I know is that for some reason it rubs me the wrong way. I realize that the Peep's tactics weren't exactly altruistic and, within limits, all's fair in love and war, yet the Peeps could have chosen to fire at the edge of their missile range but didn't. The admiral even cited their powers to be's likely stance on that action (because the current generation of Peeps were fighting an honorable war). Admiral Redmont also could have ordered Ajax not to abandon ship under threat of attack — reminiscent of Honor's ordering (was it Tourville?) not to wipe their ship's databases. Perhaps, subjectively, I "feel" and sense a bit of Peep sympathy, patience and 'fairness?' towards Ajax' plight.

But ultimately, I don't quite know why I feel this way either. It is why I am seeking forum therapy within this thread. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by SWM   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:57 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

Hm. I could see a problem if Henke had deliberately waited to abandon ship until she could draw the enemy close enough to sucker punch them. In fact, that was exactly what she suddenly feared, at the last moment, that the Havenites might believe. But that wasn't what happened. Could that be part of your vague feeling?
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:25 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

SWM wrote:Hm. I could see a problem if Henke had deliberately waited to abandon ship until she could draw the enemy close enough to sucker punch them. In fact, that was exactly what she suddenly feared, at the last moment, that the Havenites might believe. But that wasn't what happened. Could that be part of your vague feeling?

Damn well could be. Yet truthfully, I just do not know. In a way, I am embarrassed by that act — identifying so closely with the Manties as I do. But I think it goes even deeper than that. I think the context of the textev — reading between the lines — supports a sympathetic enemy. Granted, the decision of a final massive launch was made "before" the possibility to abandon existed. But after the possibility presented itself, the Manties had time to belay that 'order.' I think my feeling that Admiral Redmont was concerned about Manty lives beyond what duty and war required and that many of his own spacer's lives were lost, because his actions may have been tempered and influenced because of compassion, hurts. Manty action should not invoke in my mind "you knew I was a snake when you took me in."

And yes ...yes. I am certain that the fact that Henke had second thoughts herself exacerbates my problem. I think that Henke knew in her heart that it bordered the morally wrong. I also feel that it is beneath an heir of the Manticoran throne to consider "that" particular move. It's how I feel anyways, for what ever my subconscious reasons. Honestly.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by Yow   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:07 pm

Yow
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:32 pm
Location: North Carolina, United States

I think this feeling might boil down to our hindsight and the in-story lack of communication between the combatants. We knew what they were doing. They didn't know each other's status or intent. No demands or quarter was asked for any to be given. All the other had was the closing moments of a battle against major forces to tint their outlook on the final curtain call of this battle. This is war.

Cthia's father ~ "Son, do not cater to the common belief that a person has to earn respect. That is not true. You should give every person respect right from the start. What a person has to earn is your continued respect!"
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:24 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Yow wrote:I think this feeling might boil down to our hindsight and the in-story lack of communication between the combatants. We knew what they were doing. They didn't know each other's status or intent. No demands or quarter was asked for any to be given. All the other had was the closing moments of a battle against major forces to tint their outlook on the final curtain call of this battle. This is war.


It always amazes me how many people want to treat war like chess. War is to be avoided if at call possible and if it can't be avoided, it should be conducted with maximim effort and violence, making only as much provision as possible within the context of the situation not to harm innocent bystanders while realizing that there are going to be people who get hurt no matter how earnest the effort to avoid it might be.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:06 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Don,

Quite right.

This has struck me as putting the ex-peeps in a sympathetic light, though being suddenly surprised when the easy fish finally shows some teeth has been a hallmark of RFC's doctrinal training.

If the RHN admiral didn't use a RD to see the pods released, or the debris spilling from the boat bays, to understand what was going on board the Ajax, a self honest person as this admiral appeared to be, would recognise his own mistakes that contributed to what happened to his BC's that possibly cost the RHN a hundred times the crew what was left aboard the Ajax by the time it was destroyed, at the dinner with Mike and Tom when she was a POW.

He probably beat himself up over his mistakes, albeit much more, than Zavala did at Saltash to give Dubroskaya more time.

Personally, given the very short range up-the-kilt shots the Mk-16's had, with 3200+ attack missiles against only 8 old BC's where a 100 missiles was overkill, most should have aimed up through the SDP's kilts; there were only 6 RHN SDP's so 400 each should have been enough against no sidewalls, or stern-walls.

Even if their armor was still too tough for all the Mk-16's to fully penetrate and destroy them [!], they should have had considerable exterior damage; alpha and Beta nodes destroyed, pod doors damaged, sensors and chase weapons wrecked and ruined.

So the RHN's losses [8 BC's + 6 SDP's needing major repairs] could have been much greater if RFC had chosen that route of story telling decisions.

While the Agamemnon BCP's have been kept with the main fleets because they can carry Apollo's etc, the Nike is supposed to engage and destroy other BC's with at least some weapons' superiority, so having warheads that had such difficulty penetrating the typical BC's armor didn't and doesn't make sense, aside from the storyline drama; but I've always believed that question was probably made back when SoS first came out before I joined the bar, and whatever RFC's explanation was it didn't make it to the pearls, so I've held off pointing it out before.

Again the contradiction between the textev at the beginning of SoS regarding how the Hexapuma could have easily destroyed any first war BC either peep or Manty "at either close or long range" etc, compared to how hard it was for the same missiles to punch through the old FF BC armor at Monica shows just what a great storyteller RFC is.

Again for those who felt sympathy for the RHN admiral, you were supposed to.

L


I've been trying to update my signature for over a month but haven't been able to access my profile, has anyone else the same problem?

n7axw wrote:
Yow wrote:I think this feeling might boil down to our hindsight and the in-story lack of communication between the combatants. We knew what they were doing. They didn't know each other's status or intent. No demands or quarter was asked for any to be given. All the other had was the closing moments of a battle against major forces to tint their outlook on the final curtain call of this battle. This is war.


It always amazes me how many people want to treat war like chess. War is to be avoided if at call possible and if it can't be avoided, it should be conducted with maximim effort and violence, making only as much provision as possible within the context of the situation not to harm innocent bystanders while realizing that there are going to be people who get hurt no matter how earnest the effort to avoid it might be.

Don
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:19 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

I just updated my signature two days ago.

from: -Cthia's father
to:::: —Cthia's father

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Henke — to do, or not to do.
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:14 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

lyonheart wrote: so having warheads that had such difficulty penetrating the typical BC's armor didn't and doesn't make sense, aside from the storyline drama; but I've always believed that question was probably made back when SoS first came out before I joined the bar, and whatever RFC's explanation was it didn't make it to the pearls, so I've held off pointing it out before.

It basically amounts to "reasons".
Top

Return to Honorverse