The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign

StealthSeeker wrote:I agree that there has to be so much left behind and undone by "Houdini" with the unexpected arrival of the yet unidentified fleet that has arrived. If I remember correctly, wasn't part of disappearing critical people was that the families they left behind would be eliminated so there would be no one left behind to miss those taken to Darius? Making some sort of sense out of the total disaster of a mess that is on Mesa is going to be one unbelievably difficult job, but still, in that mess there has got to be lots of clues left behind.

No. In general, families left behind were not killed off. That happened only in a few cases, where they had specific reason to kill them. Most families of Houdini escapees are still alive.

SWM wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:I agree that there has to be so much left behind and undone by "Houdini" with the unexpected arrival of the yet unidentified fleet that has arrived. If I remember correctly, wasn't part of disappearing critical people was that the families they left behind would be eliminated so there would be no one left behind to miss those taken to Darius? Making some sort of sense out of the total disaster of a mess that is on Mesa is going to be one unbelievably difficult job, but still, in that mess there has got to be lots of clues left behind.

No. In general, families left behind were not killed off. That happened only in a few cases, where they had specific reason to kill them. Most families of Houdini escapees are still alive.

Agree. Houdini is over and done with as far as Mesa and the MAlign is concerned. Their final act was to blow the control center to hell, and the last two people exited stage left. Since the streak drive ships were restricted to Onion insiders, I would find it extremely unlikely that any were left in the system before Henke arrived. That would have been 3-4 weeks after the Houdini controllers left - and they probably took the last streak drive courier ship out of the system.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SWM wrote:No. In general, families left behind were not killed off. That happened only in a few cases, where they had specific reason to kill them. Most families of Houdini escapees are still alive.

Agree. Houdini is over and done with as far as Mesa and the MAlign is concerned. Their final act was to blow the control center to hell, and the last two people exited stage left. Since the streak drive ships were restricted to Onion insiders, I would find it extremely unlikely that any were left in the system before Henke arrived. That would have been 3-4 weeks after the Houdini controllers left - and they probably took the last streak drive courier ship out of the system.

I will agree that any big repositories of information are all gone. But there have got to be little bits of information all over the place that will prove that the MA exists.

As Torch is the only planet actually at war with Mesa, I'd like to see people from Torch brought in to administer the occupation of Mesa. They will get lots of help from Haven, Manticore, Beowulf and others I'm sure. But having Torch in charge should give some degree of hope for change to all the slaves living on Mesa and having freed slaves as part of investigative teams should help. After all, they would be able to better help in sorting out what the "ballroom" did or didn't do on Mesa. Throw in the treecats and what help that they can offer.

No big data dumps, but there will be crumbs to define a trail.

StealthSeeker wrote:As Torch is the only planet actually at war with Mesa, I'd like to see people from Torch brought in to administer the occupation of Mesa. They will get lots of help from Haven, Manticore, Beowulf and others I'm sure. But having Torch in charge should give some degree of hope for change to all the slaves living on Mesa and having freed slaves as part of investigative teams should help. After all, they would be able to better help in sorting out what the "ballroom" did or didn't do on Mesa. Throw in the treecats and what help that they can offer.

Oh, that would be great. They could recreate their infamous Torch snuff porn movies on a grand scale.

StealthSeeker wrote:I will agree that any big repositories of information are all gone. But there have got to be little bits of information all over the place that will prove that the MA exists.

As Torch is the only planet actually at war with Mesa, I'd like to see people from Torch brought in to administer the occupation of Mesa. They will get lots of help from Haven, Manticore, Beowulf and others I'm sure. But having Torch in charge should give some degree of hope for change to all the slaves living on Mesa and having freed slaves as part of investigative teams should help. After all, they would be able to better help in sorting out what the "ballroom" did or didn't do on Mesa. Throw in the treecats and what help that they can offer.

No big data dumps, but there will be crumbs to define a trail.

Think about that. Torch is the one star nation in the galaxy who hates the very existence of Mesa more than Beowulf. The star nation which was created by former genetic slaves. The star nation whose top military officer is the (supposedly former) top leader of the Audubon Ballroom. A star nation which experienced atrocities after the former slaves took over. The star nation which sent two people to Mesa who helped local terrorists blow up several nuclear weapons in the city. The star nation who openly declared war on Mesa.

You are suggesting that it is a good idea to put this nation in charge of Mesa, in control of the very genetic slavers it has vowed to eradicate, governing the people that the Audubon Ballroom killed whenever they could?

I am not sure that the more moderate populations of the galaxy would agree. They would say that Torch is the worst choice for overseeing Mesa. There would be rumors of atrocities and conspiracies and retribution. There would be demands that an international cooperative take control. Putting Torch in charge would cause interstellar outcry, a distraction that Manticore would not want.

Manticore wants attention on whatever it can find out on Mesa, not on a huge controversy over who takes control of Mesa.

--snipping--

StealthSeeker wrote:I will agree that any big repositories of information are all gone. But there have got to be little bits of information all over the place that will prove that the MA exists.

As Torch is the only planet actually at war with Mesa, I'd like to see people from Torch brought in to administer the occupation of Mesa.

Responded to this one, even with other intevening comments, in order to say "spoiler alert"...

This exact discussion takes place in Cauldron of Ghosts (CoG). Without giving away the farm, keep in mind that slaves and slave-descendents are a majority population on Mesa, with centuries long axes to grind.

Aside from the textev, my non CoG based answer would be: Berry Zilwicki. The biggest baddest bunch on the block {Manticore, Haven, and Maya, and by extension the IAN} all have her back. With Mesa being "freed", she also has street credit: the loyalty of the best armed, smartest ex-slaves in the galaxy. Who else would they turn to for fair treatment AND arms to make sure they are never enslaved again?

The League isn't even going to argue about the takeover because technically they are allied with Torch via the agreement which Oravil Barregos agreed to all the way back in "Crown of Slaves". I'm sure that the good Governor wouldn't mind using any extra tidbits out of Mesa regarding corrupted officials to strengthen his hand either, and Verrachio is out of business as of A rising Thunder (aRT). So who's left to protest that anyone out in that neck of the woods is going to give a S--t about?

SWM wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:I will agree that any big repositories of information are all gone. But there have got to be little bits of information all over the place that will prove that the MA exists.

As Torch is the only planet actually at war with Mesa, I'd like to see people from Torch brought in to administer the occupation of Mesa. They will get lots of help from Haven, Manticore, Beowulf and others I'm sure. But having Torch in charge should give some degree of hope for change to all the slaves living on Mesa and having freed slaves as part of investigative teams should help. After all, they would be able to better help in sorting out what the "ballroom" did or didn't do on Mesa. Throw in the treecats and what help that they can offer.

No big data dumps, but there will be crumbs to define a trail.

Think about that. Torch is the one star nation in the galaxy who hates the very existence of Mesa more than Beowulf. The star nation which was created by former genetic slaves. The star nation whose top military officer is the (supposedly former) top leader of the Audubon Ballroom. A star nation which experienced atrocities after the former slaves took over. The star nation which sent two people to Mesa who helped local terrorists blow up several nuclear weapons in the city. The star nation who openly declared war on Mesa.

You are suggesting that it is a good idea to put this nation in charge of Mesa, in control of the very genetic slavers it has vowed to eradicate, governing the people that the Audubon Ballroom killed whenever they could?

I am not sure that the more moderate populations of the galaxy would agree. They would say that Torch is the worst choice for overseeing Mesa. There would be rumors of atrocities and conspiracies and retribution. There would be demands that an international cooperative take control. Putting Torch in charge would cause interstellar outcry, a distraction that Manticore would not want.

Manticore wants attention on whatever it can find out on Mesa, not on a huge controversy over who takes control of Mesa.

Yes!

As far as I know the Audubon Ballroom had vowed to eradicate slave trade, not the slaves themselves, nor the slaves that work in the facilities that make the clones. But they are after the people that run the businesses that create the clones. And the Ballroom, if it wants to survive universal condemnation, will have to find better ways of dealing with problems than just killing people, like Jeremy X has. Plus, I think they would be VERY motivated investigators.

And if I was a slave or clone that had been in an extremely suppressive environment, as a large portion of Mesa has been, I would want a former slave in a position of power and control of events.

I am NOT saying that Torch (or the Ballroom) is going to have complete control of everything, for as I said, Beowulf, Haven, Manticore and others are also going to be involved. In my mind the involvement of these other star nations should mitigate the extremes. But having Torch in charge will give credibility to the idea that these new “occupiers” will bring long deserved justice to the planet. And that this new “justice” will not let the rich, who ran the companies that created slaves, buy their way out of trouble.

OOPS, I did that wrong, I'll try again.

SWM wrote:You are suggesting that it is a good idea to put this nation in charge of Mesa, in control of the very genetic slavers it has vowed to eradicate, governing the people that the Audubon Ballroom killed whenever they could?

Yes!

As far as I know the Audubon Ballroom had vowed to eradicate slave trade, not the slaves themselves, nor the slaves that work in the facilities that make the clones. But they are after the people that run the businesses that create the clones. And the Ballroom, if it wants to survive universal condemnation, will have to find better ways of dealing with problems than just killing people, like Jeremy X has. Plus, I think they would be VERY motivated investigators.

And if I was a slave or clone that had been in an extremely suppressive environment, as a large portion of Mesa has been, I would want a former slave in a position of power and control of events.

I am NOT saying that Torch (or the Ballroom) is going to have complete control of everything, for as I said, Beowulf, Haven, Manticore and others are also going to be involved. In my mind the involvement of these other star nations should mitigate the extremes. But having Torch in charge will give credibility to the idea that these new “occupiers” will bring long deserved justice to the planet. And that this new “justice” will not let the rich, who ran the companies that created slaves, buy their way out of trouble.

StealthSeeker wrote:OOPS, I did that wrong, I'll try again.

SWM wrote:You are suggesting that it is a good idea to put this nation in charge of Mesa, in control of the very genetic slavers it has vowed to eradicate, governing the people that the Audubon Ballroom killed whenever they could?

Yes!

As far as I know the Audubon Ballroom had vowed to eradicate slave trade, not the slaves themselves, nor the slaves that work in the facilities that make the clones. But they are after the people that run the businesses that create the clones. And the Ballroom, if it wants to survive universal condemnation, will have to find better ways of dealing with problems than just killing people, like Jeremy X has. Plus, I think they would be VERY motivated investigators.

And if I was a slave or clone that had been in an extremely suppressive environment, as a large portion of Mesa has been, I would want a former slave in a position of power and control of events.

I am NOT saying that Torch (or the Ballroom) is going to have complete control of everything, for as I said, Beowulf, Haven, Manticore and others are also going to be involved. In my mind the involvement of these other star nations should mitigate the extremes. But having Torch in charge will give credibility to the idea that these new “occupiers” will bring long deserved justice to the planet. And that this new “justice” will not let the rich, who ran the companies that created slaves, buy their way out of trouble.

So you don't care how it will look to the rest of the galaxy, or how the very large percentage of Mesans who are NOT slaves or seccies feel about it? You only care about the slaves and seccies, as if the other Mesans don't matter? You don't care that it looks like you are putting people who have repeatedly murdered Mesans in charge of Mesans?

SWM wrote:So you don't care how it will look to the rest of the galaxy, or how the very large percentage of Mesans who are NOT slaves or seccies feel about it? You only care about the slaves and seccies, as if the other Mesans don't matter? You don't care that it looks like you are putting people who have repeatedly murdered Mesans in charge of Mesans?

I wasn't joking about the snuff porn movies either.