Are Tincans and CL's obsolete to "modern" fleets?

n7axw wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

Between Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet, there are thousands of SLN BCs out there. That's what makes Kingsford's commerce raiding strategy doable.

Don

There are plenty of them in absolute terms. Relative to the number of places out there - some 3000 or so human colonized star systems - after accounting for all that will be lost, scrapped, and sucked up into everything but piracy, privateering, and warlordism - not enough to dominate the pirate community numerically.

Oh, there will be a lot of them in the sense of any being too many if you're in the same place. But the smallest warship modern navies are likely to be building, armed with DDM's with Mk 16-G laserheads, will end any of those relics whenever they are found, and they will be found. The only things replacing them will be classic pirates, who survive by not running across such a warship, and privateers built a whole lot like those Roland II / Saganami-D's.

n7axw wrote:The answer, as you suggest, lies in taking out the bases. However, there is an issue here too. First you have to find the bases. Then too, bases for support for BC ops can be portable, using repair ships and supply ships moved around in a gigantic shell game. Think about that base Mesa was using in Tiberian in the Service of the Sword.

How long Kingsford can keep his strategy afloat is an interesting question. But I suspect that will be effective enough to be a royal pain in the arse for the GA for a while.

Don

This is definitely wandering from the point of the thread (which may be a good thing), but - There are also issues there with SLN pride and inexperience not having them set up mobile commerce raider support bases, as opposed to using whatever Frontier Fleet base is handiest. The inexperience bites in a couple specific ways. First, the SLN has always concentrated, doctrinally, on the steady steamroller to whomp the interloper, so they've not lent this sort of campaign much thought. Second, they're specifically weak on logistical know-how for campaigning outside the Core - the rectification of which was the point of Winter Forage, the first operation of its kind in several centuries. (Pre-prolong ones, for that matter.)

There's a glimmer of hope for them in that Frontier Fleet at least has plans for "fake" commerce raiding to justify interventions. And maybe they even have arrangements for secret mobile bases for that to help preserve cover. But that's optimistic and still won't help Battle Fleet units unless they (ha) listen to FF.

And then they'd have to manage this and learn whatever lessons without the use of the wormhole networks and to make a difference before the League crumbles behind them. I doubt they have the time.

On the other hand - particularly with the Alignment pushing this plan - maybe the idea is just to set up as much of the SLN as they can as scattered, stateless pirates with a little experience commerce raiding and no other source of income, surrounded by people out to get them already. It'd make for a lot more orphaned and dangerous below-the-wall SLN units than I'd calculated elsewhere. But it'd also start the hunting of them down earlier and in more convenient places for the GA.

n7axw wrote:How long Kingsford can keep his strategy afloat is an interesting question. But I suspect that will be effective enough to be a royal pain in the arse for the GA for a while.

Don

There is another issue that will hurt the SL even if the raiders are wildly successful, most of those ships sent raiding were previously doing other duties. While the cat is away the mice will play.

Piracy in the Caribbean had a resurgence during the Napoleonic wars, only to be crushed fairly decisively after 1816. There was no resurgence after 1914 because despite the French and British navies leaving the area, there was someone who could and did keep an eye out for mischief makers.

There are likely a fair number of people who after reading reports of what has happened to SLN units in the Haven sector will assume that their ships can whomp SLN ships just as easily. Disabusing these characters is likely to take time, ships where they are, and is likely to result in SLN ships damaged or even destroyed.

We haven't seen Kingsford actual plan yet, just the broad idea from the Alignment mole.

My guess is that, while it is a viable strategy, it has more than two edges to it.

Since the Alighment wants to break up the league and one of the ways to do that is eliminate the SLN as a force for stability. Even if it is only that force by virtue of size, the total number of ships is signifcant and for a while can keep some of the fires from breaking out between SL member systems and all those places out in the Verge. Kingsford is going to have to draw the commerce raiders from somewhere and, as someone else has noted, those ships have actualy been doing other jobs if only as the enforcement muscle for OFS and their partner/client systems.

Now that you have pulled ships out of routines (even if it cocktails at 1700 hours daily around Planet Tahiti) you are going to have to pick some sort of sets of targets for them, get them together, hopefully train a bit together, and then head off to raid. Where? Silesia doesn't seem like a good bet since they would have to go a really long way in hyperspace to get there and "might" just have a speed problem because what they have to take along for their logistic train. Then, when they get there, they are a really really long way from anyplace they can repair any damage they might receive. So, Kingsford might or might not get any information back for months and months- if he gets any at all including Manticore (or the Aldermani) notifying SLN that x of you ships showed up, the survivors- dam few- are being held and we have released the prisoner and casualtie lists to the Solarian News (and others) Services before this note was delivered to you. The Aldermani will take a really dim view of SLN warships comming into their territory, particularly if they attack anything.
Any RMN warships the raiders run into can be expected to do what damage is possible and then get out of Dodge to spread the word. If they run into a group of Sarnow's modern ships, there will be, at least, an ass whooping.

Talbot Quadrant? Manticore know Mike and 10th Fleet went somewhere [ ] and will be moving ships in to restore coverage since this is THE PLACE where SLN can get at Manticorian systems and probably MMM trading with both systems in and not in the Empire. Even if FF ships hit a planet "only" covered by modern RMN LACs, they are not going to enjoy the beating. They may destroy the LACs (or they will be scuttled after the crews shoot themselves dry) but the SLN is probably going to pay a high price for the victory.

Other places? Sure, take several SLN raiding forces into the Haven sphere of planets and RHN is going to administer almost the same level of beating. Go after planets like Zunker and Idaho? Humm, Independent worlds with no SDF to speak of (like Zunkers half dozen ancient LACs) and SLN will have a marvalous "victory" killing SL or independent merchents untill getting their ships destoyed by a couple of the wormhole guard forces who can get to the system before the SLN ships get away.

Anyplace that MMM or Haven MM are going to be operating are going to have some level of defense and/or some level of convoy protection. Even RMN sending older, non DDM/MDM ships on convoys is going to take a toll on the raiders.

The Alignment wants to cut down both Haven and Manticore as a superior force. The raiding into GA space is going to do some of that, but it will have a greater attrition rate on the SLN.

Attacking Independent Systems or forcing SL systems to provide basing or calling on them to provide ships (like, say, Mannheim?, is going to create more poiltical trouble which is exactly what the Alignment wants. The RF can play that nicely, each system becoming a place for sanity with the SL going crazy.

Since some have suggested that the SLN is going to have to set up either semi-perminent bases for the commerce raiders or create mobile logistic forces, that would be a wonderfull use for a number of those older and less capable RMN light units- sneak around and scout then run like hell and report. Besides, Haven and Manticore can drop into a system being used as a raider base, shoot up the base and leave the planet and local shipping/industry totally alone- and do it from beyond any range the SLN ships can match.

n7axw wrote:
They are looking to take advantage of the fact that they have many times the number of hulls that the GA does. Any place where the GA actually encounters the SLN, the SLN will be over matched. But the rub is that the GA can only be so many places at once and the SLN can attack a much wider range of targets than the GA can defend as well as restricting its commerce to convoys. That forces the GA to use its much more limited number of hulls in commerce protection and thus making them unavailable for offensive ops.

The answer, as you suggest, lies in taking out the bases. However, there is an issue here too. First you have to find the bases. Then too, bases for support for BC ops can be portable, using repair ships and supply ships moved around in a gigantic shell game. Think about that base Mesa was using in Tiberian in the Service of the Sword.

How long Kingsford can keep his strategy afloat is an interesting question. But I suspect that will be effective enough to be a royal pain in the arse for the GA for a while.

Don

Consider this idea. The SLN using its thousands of ships to make decoy hyper transitions in support of a MAN offensive strike.

kzt wrote:Consider this idea. The SLN using its thousands of ships to make decoy hyper transitions in support of a MAN offensive strike.

That's an evil idea.

I do have to agree with the posters who say that DD/CLs will not become obsolete. Hyper capable scouts to go to a system to see what is there. A 'small', stealthy hyper capable ship to call in units from hyperspace. A 'small' cheap unit to defend convoys from the majority of pirates, who are very lightly armed. Show the flag missions to smaller nations where a larger ship could be seen as a threat. Something has to do that role and while those new ships may be either called DD or CL or both, the role of DD/CLs continues on.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:
They are looking to take advantage of the fact that they have many times the number of hulls that the GA does. Any place where the GA actually encounters the SLN, the SLN will be over matched. But the rub is that the GA can only be so many places at once and the SLN can attack a much wider range of targets than the GA can defend as well as restricting its commerce to convoys. That forces the GA to use its much more limited number of hulls in commerce protection and thus making them unavailable for offensive ops.

The answer, as you suggest, lies in taking out the bases. However, there is an issue here too. First you have to find the bases. Then too, bases for support for BC ops can be portable, using repair ships and supply ships moved around in a gigantic shell game. Think about that base Mesa was using in Tiberian in the Service of the Sword.

How long Kingsford can keep his strategy afloat is an interesting question. But I suspect that will be effective enough to be a royal pain in the arse for the GA for a while.

Don

Consider this idea. The SLN using its thousands of ships to make decoy hyper transitions in support of a MAN offensive strike.

While that might work if the SLN was conducting the strike, assuming the SLN had anything that would be able to conduct the strike, the official position of the Solarian League and the SLN is that this "Mesan Alignment" doesn't exist (the evidence of how the Yawata Strike / Oyster Bay was carried out to the contrary) and certainly no organization could manipulate the League or the SLN.

So I can't see the SLN making the decoy hyper transitions in knowing support of the MAN. However, they could make the decoy hyper transitions in an attempt to tie down GA forces so they can't be used against the Solarian League. This would require them to believe in the demonstrated capabilities of the MAN (Yawata Strike / Oyster Bay) without having to accept that the "Mesan Alignment" exists though.

Kizarvexis wrote:

kzt wrote:Consider this idea. The SLN using its thousands of ships to make decoy hyper transitions in support of a MAN offensive strike.

That's an evil idea.

I do have to agree with the posters who say that DD/CLs will not become obsolete. Hyper capable scouts to go to a system to see what is there. A 'small', stealthy hyper capable ship to call in units from hyperspace. A 'small' cheap unit to defend convoys from the majority of pirates, who are very lightly armed. Show the flag missions to smaller nations where a larger ship could be seen as a threat. Something has to do that role and while those new ships may be either called DD or CL or both, the role of DD/CLs continues on.

The only problem with "smaller ship not being a threat", is Manty/Havenite destroyers are already the size of everybody else's light cruiser.

Zavala would repeatedly tell multiple Solarian systems he's commanding a destroyer flotilla (and referenced both New Tuscany and Spindle) and the Sollies would keep calling his unit cruiser squadron.

And if you sent Manty/Havenite light cruisers, those have the appearance of being heavy cruiser if not battlecruisers. At that point you're showing a fairly hefty presence... if they were true CA/BC units.

And let's not start comparing how Grand Alliance BC's look to be Battleships, Dreadnoughts are closer to SLN SD's, and GA SD's are massive enough the SLN would have to "create" a new ship class just to define them.

Kingsford's plan, hmmm.

Seems to me like there might be a coordination problem there, followed by a lot of fruitless running around and dead SLN ships.

Here's my logic. Let's say you give the German high command 8,000 WWII U Boats in 1940. We'll have them start at every point on the globe with the "secret plan to go sink all of the American ships". That'll teach them uppity Brits and starve them to death, yada yada yada, and then we'll invade the UK.

But the USN gets to play with all of the Y2K and later current toys, aka satellite imagery, radar, aircraft carriers, the Sonus nets, nuclear attack subs, jet airplanes, smart missiles, and the like.

I'd imagine that a few convoys might get sunk, but that there'd be a whole lot more German submarine hulks that would someday turn into useful reefs or salvage locations all of the oceans where the U-Boats were operating.

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi JeffEngel,

Between Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet, there are thousands of SLN BCs out there. That's what makes Kingsford's commerce raiding strategy doable.

Don

There are plenty of them in absolute terms. Relative to the number of places out there - some 3000 or so human colonized star systems - after accounting for all that will be lost, scrapped, and sucked up into everything but piracy, privateering, and warlordism - not enough to dominate the pirate community numerically.

Oh, there will be a lot of them in the sense of any being too many if you're in the same place. But the smallest warship modern navies are likely to be building, armed with DDM's with Mk 16-G laserheads, will end any of those relics whenever they are found, and they will be found. The only things replacing them will be classic pirates, who survive by not running across such a warship, and privateers built a whole lot like those Roland II / Saganami-D's.

small nit

The number of recognized colonized systems is closer to 5-10,000 systems. The Solarian League alone has ~1800 member systems and between 500 and 1500 Protectorates (the 2nd number has never been stated, but in order for the #s we've seen, it has to be in this range.), so it alone controls almost your 3000 number.

On top of that, DW mentioned once that for every known or significant mark on the map, there is at least 50 others - failed colonies (either dead, lost, or with marginal populations), former mining ventures, abandoned/forgotten space stations (Parmelly's station), pirate waystations, military listening posts, "hidden" colonies, etc, etc.

But still as you say - the number of "freed" BCs will be a drop in the bucket.