Battle of Manticore

cthia wrote:As per BoM, I always wondered about the outcome if Honor's spider senses would have failed her and she'd jumped the gun and hypered in too quickly and gotten herself trapped?

Interesting point. As I was rereading the battle I realized that her decision to send Oversteegen's BCs in first to clear Diamato away from the Junction probably saved her fleet and the home system. It was only after Diamato had to retreat and it appeared that nothing else major was coming through from Trevor's Star (I got the impression the Havenites believed that Oversteegen was part of Kuzak's screen coming through and indicated that no more SDs were in the pipeline and thus 8th Fleet wasn't present) that Tourville ordered Chin to spring the trap. I thought it was an odd decision at the time because the emphasis the whole time had been on getting the capital ships through as quickly as possible so they could participate in the battle. It turned out to be the right one. Amazing how the fate of that battle hinged upon only a few minutes.

Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:As per BoM, I always wondered about the outcome if Honor's spider senses would have failed her and she'd jumped the gun and hypered in too quickly and gotten herself trapped?

Interesting point. As I was rereading the battle I realized that her decision to send Oversteegen's BCs in first to clear Diamato away from the Junction probably saved her fleet and the home system. It was only after Diamato had to retreat and it appeared that nothing else major was coming through from Trevor's Star (I got the impression the Havenites believed that Oversteegen was part of Kuzak's screen coming through and indicated that no more SDs were in the pipeline and thus 8th Fleet wasn't present) that Tourville ordered Chin to spring the trap. I thought it was an odd decision at the time because the emphasis the whole time had been on getting the capital ships through as quickly as possible so they could participate in the battle. It turned out to be the right one. Amazing how the fate of that battle hinged upon only a few minutes.

Indeed. Honor's decisions were golden. In this one rare instance, I cannot help but entertain 'alternate endings.' She just has the touch. But 'whatif?'

runsforcelery wrote:
With all due respect, your definitive stance is wrong.

Have a nice day!

Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:As per BoM, I always wondered about the outcome if Honor's spider senses would have failed her and she'd jumped the gun and hypered in too quickly and gotten herself trapped?

Interesting point. As I was rereading the battle I realized that her decision to send Oversteegen's BCs in first to clear Diamato away from the Junction probably saved her fleet and the home system. It was only after Diamato had to retreat and it appeared that nothing else major was coming through from Trevor's Star (I got the impression the Havenites believed that Oversteegen was part of Kuzak's screen coming through and indicated that no more SDs were in the pipeline and thus 8th Fleet wasn't present) that Tourville ordered Chin to spring the trap. I thought it was an odd decision at the time because the emphasis the whole time had been on getting the capital ships through as quickly as possible so they could participate in the battle. It turned out to be the right one. Amazing how the fate of that battle hinged upon only a few minutes.

Oversteegen's BCs are faster than Eighth Fleet's SD(P)s. They could arrive at the Trevor's Star terminus and made transits with enough lead time that Honor's first waller in line wouldn't have to wait for the terminus to reset, but they might have arrived before Kuzak finished transiting her SDs, which explains why Third Fleet's screen remained in Trevor's Star.

Since only a few could transit, Oversteegen's units were chosen, due to them being the deadliest BCs(and CAs) in the RMN. No-brainer, really, as it was obvious those Havenite units were there to report on ship movements through the junction.

I think Honor moved as fast as she could have - deploying and limpeting her pods before using the wormhole. Eighth Fleet wasn't ready to move until after Fifth Fleet had pounced - at which point Honor ordered the rest of her wallers to come through simultaneously and immediately moved to engage Fifth.

Quite simply, live training exercises is what saved the Manticoran Alliance from defeat.

cthia wrote:Indeed. Honor's decisions were golden. In this one rare instance, I cannot help but entertain 'alternate endings.' She just has the touch. But 'whatif?'

The firepower 8th had was sufficient to obliterate 5th in a single salvo, whether that was from absurdly long range or knife fighting range. Plus 8th has no reason to close on 2nd, 3rd was in Apollo range of 2nd from the moment they exited hyper, and the PH/PK of Apollo doesn't rise that much at shorter range. 8th will take significant damage, but there will likely be a lot more combat capable ships in 8th than in 5th and 2nd when the fight is over.

Edit, on second thought, my guess is that 2nd would surrender and send 5th home when they realized that a fleet the size of 8th all had Apollo.

Tenshinai wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
With all due respect, your definitive stance is wrong.

Have a nice day!

Do I detect a hint of schadenfreude?

Tenshinai wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
With all due respect, your definitive stance is wrong.

Have a nice day!

hanuman wrote:Do I detect a hint of schadenfreude?

Nah, just impressed with the short and very pointed reply of RFC.

Viciously elegant in it´s minimalism.

Schadenfreude is like jealousy, not my thing.

Tenshinai wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
With all due respect, your definitive stance is wrong.

Have a nice day!

hanuman wrote:
Do I detect a hint of schadenfreude?

Tenshinai wrote:
Nah, just impressed with the short and very pointed reply of RFC.

Viciously elegant in it´s minimalism.

Schadenfreude is like jealousy, not my thing.

Is like jealousy? I'll never figure that out.

Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:As per BoM, I always wondered about the outcome if Honor's spider senses would have failed her and she'd jumped the gun and hypered in too quickly and gotten herself trapped?

Interesting point. As I was rereading the battle I realized that her decision to send Oversteegen's BCs in first to clear Diamato away from the Junction probably saved her fleet and the home system. It was only after Diamato had to retreat and it appeared that nothing else major was coming through from Trevor's Star (I got the impression the Havenites believed that Oversteegen was part of Kuzak's screen coming through and indicated that no more SDs were in the pipeline and thus 8th Fleet wasn't present) that Tourville ordered Chin to spring the trap. I thought it was an odd decision at the time because the emphasis the whole time had been on getting the capital ships through as quickly as possible so they could participate in the battle. It turned out to be the right one. Amazing how the fate of that battle hinged upon only a few minutes.

I also wonder what would have happened if Honor had been in system, seeing CIC's report of "Sweet Jesus." Who would have taken the lead? Taken point. Would D'Orville have deferred to her? What would have been the plan? Whose plan? BoM just gives so much to consider.

Of course, the Havenites fought a good battle. Lady luck was an unfair opponent.

cthia wrote:I also wonder what would have happened if Honor had been in system, seeing CIC's report of "Sweet Jesus." Who would have taken the lead? Taken point. Would D'Orville have deferred to her? What would have been the plan? Whose plan? BoM just gives so much to consider.

Of course, the Havenites fought a good battle. Lady luck was an unfair opponent.

This is why there is only one Admiral of the Fleet in the RMN. Home Fleet's CO will be giving the orders until his flagship is destroyed or crippled, the next ranking Admiral(or captain, if the situation has really gone to pot) with a functional flagship under her feet takes over. That's how the military hierarchy works, though in practice COs of widely separated units may have to act independently, even with the FTL comms.

If Eighth Fleet was already in-system and in formation with Home Fleet, Second Fleet would've been toast, probably with D'Orville devolving tactical command to Honor, similar to Khumalo and Terekhov at the Battle of Spindle, or Kuzak and McKeon after Fifth fleet jumped in. When nearly forty of what appears to be Home Fleet's wallers start tossing Apollo salvos, the RHN would have broken off their attack.