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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:05 pm

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cthia wrote:First, none of that is necessary if your opponent does not have your frequency or frequencies. One frequency alone is enough security between the mothership and the missiles if your opponent has no way of obtaining said frequency. It requires an infinite amount of power to jam all frequencies unless you are right on top of the receivers or emitters. Plus, any complexity demands the appropriate amount of additional power for the communication. Complexity also decreases the solidity of the communication.


A spectrum analyser can quickly find any one frequency in use. You can't hide the use of the spectrum if your opponent can receive your transmissions (either because it's broadcast or because they've inserted a receiver in your transmission path).

The trick in FHSS is to not let the opponent know which frequency you'll use next, so their jamming, as you and I said, becomes impractical. Since this technique has been in use by the military since WW2 (20th century current reckoning), I see no reason why they'd have forgotten this little detail in the 20th century post diaspora. We don't know if gravcoms have such a thing as a frequency, though.

What you are missing is that to execute an effective jam, the frequency or frequencies required MUST already be known. Hint, these platforms analyze the frequencies used just like the Apollo system -- and any navy -- analyzes the frequency(s) used by the enemy's ECM.

Modulating frequencies on the fly will work fine in a closed system. (Like Star Trek's shields). But in an open system where there are separate objects in the system (warship transmitters and missiles downrange) it is impossible. A communication protocol must already be established beforehand. And any jamming platform worth its weight in chips will get the "pattern" that is used easily. It simply needs a good enough look at the pattern. That is already a necessity in the HV and we hear it all of the time. "We got a good look at their ECM."


I don't think you appreciate how difficult establishing the patterns in pseudo-random frequency hopping is. And you must be familiar with paired pseudo-random number generation, which we currently use in a lot of Two-Factor Authentication mechanisms in our world (Google Authenticator app or equivalent by other companies, the physical RSA ID tokens, etc.), and with a publicly-known algorithm. We don't know how fast a molycirc computer is and therefore how fast it could crunch the numbers to deduce the pattern, but both sides have effectively equally fast computers, so the difficulty is the same regardless, unless some mathematical or technical breakthrough made solving the problem much faster, like Shor's Algorithm is expected to do for prime-based cryptography in the advent of quantum computing.

They're far more likely to be limited by spectrum and the technical capabilities of their transceivers. In fact, the best way to jam a receiver, as discussed earlier in this thread, would be to send enough energy into it even in the wrong frequency so that it gets saturated and can't receive the actual transmission.

Also, the proximity of the jamming device is important. If the jamming platform is much closer to the missiles than the mothership, its power requirements to effect the jam decreases significantly. Hint: Any such platform will be much closer to the missiles.


Eh, kinda. For lasers, we're talking directed energy and the loss through dispersion is much less than the square of the distance. We still don't know how fast gravcoms decay and whether their transmissions are directed or not.

You also can't put the platform closer than half-way, otherwise those missiles can turn around and target that very bright emitting source pointing at them.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:13 pm

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cthia wrote:Late edit: But a question arises. Can an FTL signal be jammed without similar FTL capability


Well, no. It's like asking pre-Marconi 19th century militaries to jam electromagnetic frequencies. They didn't even know those existed and they didn't have the means to inject energy into it. Or, more likely, asking a WW2-era transceiver to jam a 4 or 5G digital transmissions: they know it exists and can perceive some of it, but don't have the technology to get there.

We're assuming here the secret of gravcoms will leak. The discussion so far has been assuming that the MAlign has cracked that and has a working jamming platform. Jamming (producing uncontrolled noise) is much easier than transmitting, let alone receiving.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by aairfccha   » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:07 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Or, more likely, asking a WW2-era transceiver to jam a 4 or 5G digital transmissions: they know it exists and can perceive some of it, but don't have the technology to get there.

Don't underestimate the era of vacuum tubes. The really old and noisy spark gap transmitters might have been able to do this (or not, if the antenna acted as a filter) and the cavity magnetron came into use during the war, operating at frequencies of several GHz (like the H2S Mk. III radar at 10 GHz and K-Band radar towards the end of the war).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2S_(radar)
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Relax   » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:32 pm

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aairfccha wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Or, more likely, asking a WW2-era transceiver to jam a 4 or 5G digital transmissions: they know it exists and can perceive some of it, but don't have the technology to get there.

Don't underestimate the era of vacuum tubes. The really old and noisy spark gap transmitters might have been able to do this (or not, if the antenna acted as a filter) and the cavity magnetron came into use during the war, operating at frequencies of several GHz (like the H2S Mk. III radar at 10 GHz and K-Band radar towards the end of the war).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2S_(radar)

As a kid I was using a 2.5Ghz Klystron made in WWII and a waveguide to shoot at ducks paddling by where I grew up... They got the message and stopped pooping all over our dock.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:34 pm

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aairfccha wrote:Don't underestimate the era of vacuum tubes. The really old and noisy spark gap transmitters might have been able to do this (or not, if the antenna acted as a filter) and the cavity magnetron came into use during the war, operating at frequencies of several GHz (like the H2S Mk. III radar at 10 GHz and K-Band radar towards the end of the war).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2S_(radar)


Which is why I said they may perceive it's there, but that doesn't mean they're able to jam it. A quick Google search does not reveal some key information that is necessary to distinguish a radar from a transceiver, like the bandwidth. Their spectrum utilisation probably looks like a Gaussian curve (as is usual of analogue transmissions -- spectrum-inefficient), so how quickly does it fall off to the sides? 5 G commercial-use bands are a minimum of 5 MHz. WiFi at 5 GHz can go as wide as 160 MHz.

Another key data point would be how stable those old equipment can maintain their centre frequency. And how quickly they could switch frequencies, in order to react to frequency hopping.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:39 am

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cthia wrote:
Inta da fire...


My opinion seems to differ quite a bit about how easy it should be to attack Darius.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:Maybe a siege may be better. If the GA can take and hold the terminus, Darius is cut off from rapid deployment.


cthia wrote:I don't know about you, but I am having nightmares about a Home System that makes the perimeter that the MBS has established look like a Boy Scout Camp.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think that's either possible or likely.

The MBS defences are nothing to sneeze at. To make them look pale in comparison requires such a great amount of firepower and sensing technologies that it would be inconceivable in the HV. We'd be talking about the single most industrialised system in the Galaxy, equivalent to 20 core systems, and populated for less than 2 centuries. it also requires a much larger population base than there is on Darius. And a much larger shipyard than we know is there.

The other problem is the likelihood of this happening. Such thick defences imply a lot of officers and a lot of ships, most of which are hyper capable and any of which is capable of destroying the planet if it got the chance. Are the Detweilers trusting of their subordinates? Because if they're not, they're not likely to trust large fleets in system because those could turn on them. And it only takes a single hyper-capable ship leaving to betray the secret of Darius' existence and location. The more ships you have, the easier it would be to get lost in the noise, and coast to the hyperlimit with wedges down.

Plus all those stealth ships that their own sensors can't detect. How do the Detweilers know those aren't conspiring against them to attack or leave.

Massive Forts w/ Spider Drive
-- Surrounded by shoals of system defense graser pods.


Those are likely, but no more so than there would be in the MBS, except for the spider. The spider itself is not a gain here, since the fort is still limited to paltry acceleration in the order of 100 gravities. That's 2x more than a Manticoran fort, but nothing compared to the ships flying rings around it.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between a fort and an LD. Maybe the difference is whether it mounts a hyperdrive (and streak drives are big) and impeller rings for the Warshawski sail so they can transit through wormholes. Therefore, the non-hypercapable version of the LD (a corvette?) could free up some internal volume to be rededicated to missiles or torpedoes.

But is that worth it? A defender can't rely on stealth to sneak up on the enemy, they have to be around the objective they're defending. Those spider emitters on their hull are also surface that they can't have a missile tube on. Plus, the moment they raise the bubble wall, the stealth is gone.

So I fail to see the purpose of a spider-driven fort. It's much cheaper and useful to have a regular fort, maybe with no propulsion other than thrusters.

Finally, there's the question of how to build them. Each one costs as much time, resources, and treasury as an LD. And we know they hadn't built a lot of them yet. That also means they're far more likely to have pre-spider forts, because those they could have begun building a century ago, even with paltry industries.

Massive Graser Installations
--They don't even have to have much mobility, because they are built in enormous numbers. When you have invisible weapons platforms seeded throughout your system, you can maneuver and engage the enemy with those invisible installations in mind, thus setting a trap.

Do you really think you can hyper into Darius without receiving a very warm welcome?


ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem again with the spider is how slow they are compared to a wedge. A graser torpedo is going to be manoeuvring around 50 gravities, while the ships they're tracking are moving at 550+. Those ships are also getting screened by LACs that can get up to 800.

And how mind-boggling huge space is. It takes a lot of industry to build sufficient graser torpedoes and seed them throughout the system so they can reach all possible approaches to Darius Gamma. So if they go for this strategy, I imagine it's a close-in defence (a light-minute or two out, at most) of the planet, meaning the entire rest of the star system is left to fend for itself. That in turn means it's the end of the space industry, since no further resources from asteroids are going to be fed into their orbital industries too.

Trying to trap an incoming fleet further out just doesn't seem feasible or effective. No fleet is going to come on a straight line, because they know such stealth exists. Tom Clancy had it right with the Crazy Ivan manoeuvres. And you need a lot of torpedoes to take out a fleet as big as the Grand Fleet. It's going to be at least one torpedo firing and striking per capital ship to kill it and the GF is going to come with 500 of those. How many torpedoes do you need to guarantee a hit? The fleet is going to be evading, will be inside wedges (through which the torpedoes can't see), obscured by sidewalls (through which torpedoes have trouble seeing), protected by such sidewalls and by lighter ships which will be pushed out to screen against stealth attacks.

So I'd expect at least 5x the number of torpedoes to capital ships and I'm being generous. So just how many 5000-torpedo groupings can the MAlign have in Darius?

Finally, nail in the coffin for spider stealth is the spider activation: we know there are betraying emissions when that happens. 5000 torpedoes activating at once paints them pretty clearly.

I am stilled miffed about you questioning MAlign loyalty. Name one instance where they've had a problem with loyalty outside of Simoes? Which was a matter of personal, very personal, problems. I have said it again and again, the MA is no different than a cult. And cults generally have no problem with loyalty. On the contrary, cults have been known to be so loyal that they will commit suicide if told.

Also, I keep saying that the author will have made sure that enough time has elapsed before the climactic battle with the baddies. From what I have gleaned of the discussions of the current book, it looks like the author is setting the stage to advance the timeline.

BTW, Tom Clancy may have had it right about his Crazy Ivan maneuver against a single foe who you have some idea where he is located. Against many foe who you have no idea how many or where, a Crazy Ivan maneuver will be as hopeless as trying to dodge death in a minefield.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:00 am

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jtg452 wrote:Like everyone's said, a wormhole assault would be suicidal. While crazy, ruthless and bloodthirsty, the Malign isn't stupid and they've had centuries to dig in deep in Darius. Until Darius' location can be pinned down, attacking it would be impossible. The only chance of a successful attack would be through hyper.

I agree, but how can an attack even be mounted through hyper before the location of Darius has been pinned down?

It is like saying that we can still get to California even though we have never been to California. And even though we can't use the single Interstate we know of leading to California, we can simply go the long way around to get to it, even though we don't know where IT is in relation to anything else.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:40 pm

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cthia wrote:I am stilled miffed about you questioning MAlign loyalty. Name one instance where they've had a problem with loyalty outside of Simoes? Which was a matter of personal, very personal, problems. I have said it again and again, the MA is no different than a cult. And cults generally have no problem with loyalty. On the contrary, cults have been known to be so loyal that they will commit suicide if told.


McBryde and likely McBryde.

That we haven't seen them in the past is no indication they won t exist in the future. And I was arguing that the bigger your space infrastructure and shipping is, the higher the chance that it will happen, however low the probability is. When have only a dozen or two captains, another dozen or three XOs to keep the captains in check, you can screen them all. When you have several hundred of them, plus civilian shipping (even if a state enterprise), you may miss some through the cracks.

To build the industry at the level needed to produce the defences at the level you were proposing, they'd need even more than that.

And will the paranoiacs at the centre of the Onion take that chance?

Also, I keep saying that the author will have made sure that enough time has elapsed before the climactic battle with the baddies. From what I have gleaned of the discussions of the current book, it looks like the author is setting the stage to advance the timeline.


Since I haven't read it or the discussions, I can't comment. All the videos from David in the last couple of years is that the big time jump will not happen.

Ten or fifteen years is not enough to get the industry and defences at the level you were proposing in the OP. A century is more like it.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:47 pm

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cthia wrote:I agree, but how can an attack even be mounted through hyper before the location of Darius has been pinned down?


That's the whole point of this thread: assuming the location becomes known, how does the GA attack. The whole premise of the OP is that the Onion has fortified against an attack in the inner system and that can only happen after the enemy has discovered the location.

We're not discussing how that information will come by; we're assuming it has. We all agree it isn't supposed to become known and will be the most closely-guarded secret. The navigational databases and stellar ephemerides are likely erased from any ship the moment they reach Felix, so there's no chance that it would fall into the hands of the enemy.

Given that, is it actually possible the Onion will not have fortified their own system? That they rely on their OpSec to keep Darius' location secret? I actually don't think this is likely: as much as I think they have their blinders on (see other thread), they do think of contingency plans so they will have made some provisions for local defence.

Not that I think it's enough against the GA (including the IAN now).
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:35 pm

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cthia wrote:BTW, Tom Clancy may have had it right about his Crazy Ivan maneuver against a single foe who you have some idea where he is located. Against many foe who you have no idea how many or where, a Crazy Ivan maneuver will be as hopeless as trying to dodge death in a minefield.

Well Clancy's case the submarines had a single blind spot, to the rear, where their prop blocks their sonar. So the Crazy Ivan just let the sub check that blind spot by making a hard turn to swing the most sensitive sonar through that direction.


The "tactic" is pointless if you have all around sensor coverage; like Honorverse ships do.


Also it wasn't necessarily that a single foe might have been hiding there. It was that anything might be back there - multiple subs (unlikely since NATO subs rarely work in concert like that), multiple anti-submarine helicopters or marine patrol craft dropping sonobuoys or using dipping sonar, anti-submarine surface forces or escorts; or even targets you might like to track or attack.

The turning around is just to sweep the sensors through that otherwise blind zone. The random timing of it is to try to keep any foes from going silent (dropping into stealth) just before you turn around and scan for them.
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