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Re: The Grand Alliance Grand Attack | |
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Draken
Posts: 199
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SL is very similar to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1505 Sejm voted law which said nihil novi, nothing about as without our agreement. It caused Poland being destroyed in the end of XVIII century.
About R&D of SL, they need at least four years to create design of SD(P), invent micro plants, FTL communication, pod core, MDM which is hardest of all. After that they need to test and start production of new ships. If they will go for lighter ships they may get them in 36-42 months from not, but it's really small chance maybe 0.5%. More real time is 42-48 for anything smaller than DN and 56-68 for wallers. LACs are something which is much harder to invent for them, they don't have fission plans, Vipers, bow walls and few other things. But if I were them, first I will start developing any electronic warfare and upgrading anything which is possible, I need ships to cover up to 7 years window of vulnerability. |
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fallsfromtrees
Posts: 1960
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I think you have seriously misread the situation. The SEM doesn't really want to kill a lot of Solarians who don;t have any say in whether or not they fight. If the mandarins, even at this late date, admitted that they had been played by Mesa (blame it on Ramjapet - he isn't around to dispute it), paid the reparations due because of their fleets unprovoked attacks on Manticore ships and planets, then the SEM would consider the job done. This isn't going to happen because the mandarins can't conceive of admitting to the galaxy as a whole that they screwed up massively - and the MAlign isn't interested in having the SL survive. The major impetus towards the dissolution of the SL is theirs, not Manticore's. There is NO textev that Manticore will break up any subunits of the SL that don't attack them first. This is truly a case of: If you open the door to violence, you have no complaints if a little more violence walks though the door than you expected. The mandarins have sowed the whirlwind, they can now reap the tornado. ========================
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln |
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Relax
Posts: 3230
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Strat: Attack all SLN forces, leave SDF’s unless they choose to fight. Communicate this to all SL governments, telling them, “No, we do not personally hold your world responsible, for the action of a clique of unelected bureaucrats, but we do reserve the right to defend our selves by eliminating the dagger aimed our way by this cabal.” *************************************************** Haven has already stated, it would use its missiles so Manticore can save their Apollo birds for those actually responsible for the second Havenite war and Oyster bay. In my previous post I showed that the whole “operation” could be accomplished in a long month with a mere 250 SD’P or so. That is roughly 25% of GA available capital ships. If one expanded the operations to two months, it could be done by a mere 100 RHN SD’P or so. Leaving 85%-90% home. Home defense is hardly an issue worth worrying about. Especially for the RHN, as it has had Moriarity deployed. RMN in Silesia/TQ does not. It is more imperative that RMN forces stay home compared to RHN forces. It should be noted, it would not be difficult to put RHN pod based missiles in RMN space for local defense if one wished to. As noted by others, sharing such information to the RMN on RHN handshake protocols, SIGINT missile data when attacking, is a touchy subject. Politics hurdles to overcome as scientifically speaking, creating a modified handshake so RMN forces could use RHN missiles should be quite simple if given the framework structure code from the RHN. If this happened, effectively this would free up all of the RMN/GSN forces as well for offensive operations. By using RHN’s missiles on Soalrian SD’s/BC’s, it now creates a power vacuum. The local SDF’s are now the preeminent knuckle duster in SL space. The major reason the GA will do this is so they can narrow down possible MALIGN associates. Divide and conquer. When these SDF’s start moving and new alliaTnces are formed will be giant blinking neon signs for who is with whom. The timing will give more away than anything else. This narrows down the possibilities because right now, they do not have a clue who is MALIGN and who is not. 2000 worlds with no GA presence on the ground for political wind shifting sniffing, is a giant problem for determining who is and is not MALIGN. Need more clues. 2 birds, one stone. Eliminate threat, and obtain information. Shortage of hulls is not the problem currently. The problem is information on the MALIGN. In this case a near complete dearth of information. _________
Tally Ho! Relax |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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The so-called Harrington Doctrine was simply Honor's answer to the question: How could we defeat the Solarian League? Manticore did not stop trying the diplomatic route after Honor gave that plan. They continued to try to talk to the League, for months after that. Now, the Solarian League has fired upon the Manticore system itself. As Honor said at that time, this establishes a state of war with the League. The Solarian fleet fired, killing the last hope for peace. But this is NOT because Manticore didn't try for diplomatic talks. It's because the Solarian League made a blatant and unilateral act of war directly against the Manticoran home system despite all efforts by Manticore to avoid it. That does not mean that Manticore will not try to end this with diplomacy. But it's a little silly to expect Manticore to try peaceful settlement right now when the last time they tried that, the guy fired his missiles. Clearly, the League won't listen to any talk until they've been taken down a few notches. Manticore has tried and tried and tried again to talk to the League. The League has crossed the line. Now Manticore has to force them to listen. --------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine |
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Zakharra
Posts: 619
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If the SL sued for peace, admitted fault in its actions and called for a secession of hostilities by the SLN, do you think the SEM would accept that? My impression is in A Rising Thunder, that the SEM had given up on the SL and wanted to just bring the entire thing crashing down into ruin. The bit that is quoted in the next book doesn't suggest otherwise either. The SEM will not allow the SL to exist anymore, now or in the future and that they are prepared to militarily if need be, break it up and keep -all- successor states below a certain size because they intend for their to never be any threat from the SL or SL systems to them ever again. Unless that is thrown out the window and the SEM are willing to talk if the SL changes leadership (the Mandarins aren't going to be there forever and will be deposed, killed or flee), then the Harrington doctrine as its called, mandates the ruination and the SEM overseeing the future status of SL space. Or did I misread what Harrington was saying when she laid out her plan to deal with the SL? |
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JeffEngel
Posts: 2074
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If anyone else wants a reference for the Harrington Doctrine, it's in Chapter 44 of _Storm from the Shadows_. Part of that that's not being mentioned is that the plan for the successor states is to encourage them as Manticoran friends and to treat them as such. The quarrel is with the League - if you're dropping out of it, you're dropping out of trouble, and let's cozy up and be besties. Make my enemy my friend and all that. Size control is mostly an issue for a successor state that would be a plausible inheritor of League policies, enmities, ambitions, and arrogance. It'd be a delicate act, trying to chip away at the League to break it into pieces in some Goldilocks zone of being large enough to work and not be warlord-fodder, but not so large as to be a Second Solarian League. It'd be especially delicate while being the would-be friend and patron of almost any successor state arrangement. Frankly, I think Manticore is going to have a lot more trouble managing a collapsing League than making it collapse - particularly when the Alignment is doing the same thing and Haven just won't have the same stake in keeping things orderly. (Haven may have a role as a model of an interstellar democratic state. Solarians won't care for hereditary governments, and Haven can demonstrate one that's democratic and functional.) But at that point, they were not operating with realistic hope that a satisfactory diplomatic resolution was institutionally possible out of the League. So there's that. If sanity broke out on Old Terra, great and wonderful, but the SEM wouldn't be able to survive safely in a universe with a large, powerful, arrogant, Solarian League with a leadership that wasn't in the reality-based community anymore. In practice, the SEM was going for the throat of the League - in, one has to say, about the most humane way someone can pursue interstellar war across hundreds of star systems. |
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Zakharra
Posts: 619
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The book is on my X-mas wish list. ![]() My biggest issue with the doctrine is the size. Manticore is setting itself up as the arbitrator of what is allowed and what isn't. If a large SL successor state, or a large section of the SL survives the collapse and offers up peace with the SEM, but declines to be friends (not enemies, just a wary peace. Kind of like what there was before the SEM/SL issues came into the open), do you think the SEM would leave it alone if the new state was larger than what it preferred? The implication I got is the SEM won't allow -any- SL nation state to exist above a certain size and would use military force to trim it down if need be. I do agree with you in that I think the SEM/GA is going to have a harder time managing the collapse of the SL than it thinks it will, and that the pieces won't all fall as planned. Something is going to arise from the corpse of the SL that the SEM or the Malign will not be able to control. The SEM is certainly not going to be able to stop all of the R&D that is going to be going on either. I also can't imagine any SL successor nation is going to ever want Manticore to dominate their economy like it did the SL ever again. The economic hammer the SEM used to pound the SL's economy is going to stick in many politicians minds. |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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Yes, if the Solarian League sued for peace, I believe that Manticore would sit down to talks. But at this point, Manticore would be demanding really big concessions from the League, perhaps even restructuring of their constitution or even the official break-up of the League. The League would not be suing for peace unless it was in dire straights, with Manticore having the upper hand. And since the League is clearly the aggressor, Manticore would be in their rights to make high demands to ensure Manticore's future security. Now that the League has rejected their last calls for peace and opened all-out war, Manticore has no reason to accept any peace that does not guarantee the empire's future safety. So yes, I believe Manticore would engage in peace talks if the League asked for them, but the League wouldn't like the negotations one bit. Manticore does not expect the League to be willing to talk until they have essentially lost the war. --------------------------------------------
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Weird Harold
Posts: 4478
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You're missing the point that the size limitation only applies to "Not Friends;" Nearly every member of the GA is bigger than the GA will tolerate as "not friends" that self-identify as "Solarian" -- i.e. a successor state that has a grudge or thinks of itself as the seed of a "New Solarian League." You're also ignoring the web of mutual defense treaties that will effectively expand the GA to the point where "too large" can be a very large chunk of the former Solarian League. You're also discounting the Reformation of the Solarian League as an end result of "Destroying" the League; The Haven that is a member of the GA is NOT the same Haven Manticore spent a couple of decades at war with. A similar transformation in the basic structure of the League (if possible) could expect similar results. .
. . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.) |
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Weird Harold
Posts: 4478
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I don't think Manticore expects there to be a League to negotiate with by the time "they have essentially lost the war." Beowulf was just the first rat over the side of the sinking ship. .
. . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.) |
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