The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

Zakharra wrote:
From what I've heard and been quoted about what is now called the Harrington Doctrine on these forums, the SEM is done trying to negotiate. it's goal now, is, as lined out in the plan Honor Harrington laid out is the break up of the SL, by force, until it is small enough that no one part of it can threaten the SEM ever again. That was emphasized quite strongly in the quotes. From what it sounded like, they were no longer interested in working with the SL, but are committed to its destruction, albeit on and for a different reason than the MAlign is. Another implication was that even if the SL sued for peace and accepted fault for what's happened, the SEM would not accept for any reason. Even if the leadership of the SL changed, it would still not be accepted because the SL is so large that if it did become a threat again, it would crush the SEM because now it has been awakened to the fact its military is pathetic and weak. The SL's destruction by the SEM is going to happen because of the threat they pose now (current leadership) and because of potential threats it might pose later if left intact (ignoring that the RH could be an enemy again).

The implication is also that the SEM/RMN will not allow -any- part of the SL to remain intact if the SEM thinks it might be a danger to the SEM. ie if some of the SL manages to survive the initial collapse intact or reforms into a state the SEM feels uncomfortable with, the SEM will rip it apart by any means, militarily, economic, politically until the SEM is satisfied with the result. The SEM is setting up itself as the overseer of what size and kind of nations that emerge from the current growing chaos. Not the people/systems in the SL, but Manticore is going to be the decider here.

Zakharra wrote:

SWM wrote:Who said that Manticore won't treat with the Solarian League? They've been trying to treat with the Solarian League for close on to a year now. The League's response so far has been to shoot at Manticoran ships, seize Manticoran citizens, ignore legitimate protests, engineer the suppression of Solarian voices who spoke in favor of negotiation, and send yet more ships at Manticoran territories.

The Queen and her advisors, including Harrington, guessed early on that none of their diplomatic efforts would work, and that they would be forced to respond with force. They have held a firm line, and refused to let the League push them around. They planned on what they would have to do if it came to war. But Manticore has most definitely been trying to reach diplomatic settlement with the League. They activated Lacoon I, and later Lacoon II, only after repeated failures to get any useful response from the League.

From what I've heard and been quoted about what is now called the Harrington Doctrine on these forums, the SEM is done trying to negotiate. it's goal now, is, as lined out in the plan Honor Harrington laid out is the break up of the SL, by force, until it is small enough that no one part of it can threaten the SEM ever again. That was emphasized quite strongly in the quotes. From what it sounded like, they were no longer interested in working with the SL, but are committed to its destruction, albeit on and for a different reason than the MAlign is. Another implication was that even if the SL sued for peace and accepted fault for what's happened, the SEM would not accept for any reason. Even if the leadership of the SL changed, it would still not be accepted because the SL is so large that if it did become a threat again, it would crush the SEM because now it has been awakened to the fact its military is pathetic and weak. The SL's destruction by the SEM is going to happen because of the threat they pose now (current leadership) and because of potential threats it might pose later if left intact (ignoring that the RH could be an enemy again).

The implication is also that the SEM/RMN will not allow -any- part of the SL to remain intact if the SEM thinks it might be a danger to the SEM. ie if some of the SL manages to survive the initial collapse intact or reforms into a state the SEM feels uncomfortable with, the SEM will rip it apart by any means, militarily, economic, politically until the SEM is satisfied with the result. The SEM is setting up itself as the overseer of what size and kind of nations that emerge from the current growing chaos. Not the people/systems in the SL, but Manticore is going to be the decider here.

SWM wrote:

Zakharra wrote: "SWM"
Who said that Manticore won't treat with the Solarian League? They've been trying to treat with the Solarian League for close on to a year now. The League's response so far has been to shoot at Manticoran ships, seize Manticoran citizens, ignore legitimate protests, engineer the suppression of Solarian voices who spoke in favor of negotiation, and send yet more ships at Manticoran territories.

The Queen and her advisors, including Harrington, guessed early on that none of their diplomatic efforts would work, and that they would be forced to respond with force. They have held a firm line, and refused to let the League push them around. They planned on what they would have to do if it came to war. But Manticore has most definitely been trying to reach diplomatic settlement with the League. They activated Lacoon I, and later Lacoon II, only after repeated failures to get any useful response from the League. quote


From what I've heard and been quoted about what is now called the Harrington Doctrine on these forums, the SEM is done trying to negotiate. it's goal now, is, as lined out in the plan Honor Harrington laid out is the break up of the SL, by force, until it is small enough that no one part of it can threaten the SEM ever again. That was emphasized quite strongly in the quotes. From what it sounded like, they were no longer interested in working with the SL, but are committed to its destruction, albeit on and for a different reason than the MAlign is. Another implication was that even if the SL sued for peace and accepted fault for what's happened, the SEM would not accept for any reason. Even if the leadership of the SL changed, it would still not be accepted because the SL is so large that if it did become a threat again, it would crush the SEM because now it has been awakened to the fact its military is pathetic and weak. The SL's destruction by the SEM is going to happen because of the threat they pose now (current leadership) and because of potential threats it might pose later if left intact (ignoring that the RH could be an enemy again).

The implication is also that the SEM/RMN will not allow -any- part of the SL to remain intact if the SEM thinks it might be a danger to the SEM. ie if some of the SL manages to survive the initial collapse intact or reforms into a state the SEM feels uncomfortable with, the SEM will rip it apart by any means, militarily, economic, politically until the SEM is satisfied with the result. The SEM is setting up itself as the overseer of what size and kind of nations that emerge from the current growing chaos. Not the people/systems in the SL, but Manticore is going to be the decider here.

The so-called Harrington Doctrine was simply Honor's answer to the question: How could we defeat the Solarian League? Manticore did not stop trying the diplomatic route after Honor gave that plan. They continued to try to talk to the League, for months after that.

Now, the Solarian League has fired upon the Manticore system itself. As Honor said at that time, this establishes a state of war with the League. The Solarian fleet fired, killing the last hope for peace.

But this is NOT because Manticore didn't try for diplomatic talks. It's because the Solarian League made a blatant and unilateral act of war directly against the Manticoran home system despite all efforts by Manticore to avoid it.

That does not mean that Manticore will not try to end this with diplomacy. But it's a little silly to expect Manticore to try peaceful settlement right now when the last time they tried that, the guy fired his missiles. Clearly, the League won't listen to any talk until they've been taken down a few notches. Manticore has tried and tried and tried again to talk to the League. The League has crossed the line. Now Manticore has to force them to listen.

Zakharra wrote: If the SL sued for peace, admitted fault in its actions and called for a secession of hostilities by the SLN, do you think the SEM would accept that? My impression is in A Rising Thunder, that the SEM had given up on the SL and wanted to just bring the entire thing crashing down into ruin. The bit that is quoted in the next book doesn't suggest otherwise either. The SEM will not allow the SL to exist anymore, now or in the future and that they are prepared to militarily if need be, break it up and keep -all- successor states below a certain size because they intend for their to never be any threat from the SL or SL systems to them ever again.

Unless that is thrown out the window and the SEM are willing to talk if the SL changes leadership (the Mandarins aren't going to be there forever and will be deposed, killed or flee), then the Harrington doctrine as its called, mandates the ruination and the SEM overseeing the future status of SL space. Or did I misread what Harrington was saying when she laid out her plan to deal with the SL?

JeffEngel wrote:

Zakharra wrote: If the SL sued for peace, admitted fault in its actions and called for a secession of hostilities by the SLN, do you think the SEM would accept that? My impression is in A Rising Thunder, that the SEM had given up on the SL and wanted to just bring the entire thing crashing down into ruin. The bit that is quoted in the next book doesn't suggest otherwise either. The SEM will not allow the SL to exist anymore, now or in the future and that they are prepared to militarily if need be, break it up and keep -all- successor states below a certain size because they intend for their to never be any threat from the SL or SL systems to them ever again.

Unless that is thrown out the window and the SEM are willing to talk if the SL changes leadership (the Mandarins aren't going to be there forever and will be deposed, killed or flee), then the Harrington doctrine as its called, mandates the ruination and the SEM overseeing the future status of SL space. Or did I misread what Harrington was saying when she laid out her plan to deal with the SL?

If anyone else wants a reference for the Harrington Doctrine, it's in Chapter 44 of _Storm from the Shadows_.

Part of that that's not being mentioned is that the plan for the successor states is to encourage them as Manticoran friends and to treat them as such. The quarrel is with the League - if you're dropping out of it, you're dropping out of trouble, and let's cozy up and be besties. Make my enemy my friend and all that.

Size control is mostly an issue for a successor state that would be a plausible inheritor of League policies, enmities, ambitions, and arrogance. It'd be a delicate act, trying to chip away at the League to break it into pieces in some Goldilocks zone of being large enough to work and not be warlord-fodder, but not so large as to be a Second Solarian League. It'd be especially delicate while being the would-be friend and patron of almost any successor state arrangement. Frankly, I think Manticore is going to have a lot more trouble managing a collapsing League than making it collapse - particularly when the Alignment is doing the same thing and Haven just won't have the same stake in keeping things orderly. (Haven may have a role as a model of an interstellar democratic state. Solarians won't care for hereditary governments, and Haven can demonstrate one that's democratic and functional.)

But at that point, they were not operating with realistic hope that a satisfactory diplomatic resolution was institutionally possible out of the League. So there's that. If sanity broke out on Old Terra, great and wonderful, but the SEM wouldn't be able to survive safely in a universe with a large, powerful, arrogant, Solarian League with a leadership that wasn't in the reality-based community anymore. In practice, the SEM was going for the throat of the League - in, one has to say, about the most humane way someone can pursue interstellar war across hundreds of star systems.

Zakharra wrote:

SWM wrote:The so-called Harrington Doctrine was simply Honor's answer to the question: How could we defeat the Solarian League? Manticore did not stop trying the diplomatic route after Honor gave that plan. They continued to try to talk to the League, for months after that.

Now, the Solarian League has fired upon the Manticore system itself. As Honor said at that time, this establishes a state of war with the League. The Solarian fleet fired, killing the last hope for peace.

But this is NOT because Manticore didn't try for diplomatic talks. It's because the Solarian League made a blatant and unilateral act of war directly against the Manticoran home system despite all efforts by Manticore to avoid it.

That does not mean that Manticore will not try to end this with diplomacy. But it's a little silly to expect Manticore to try peaceful settlement right now when the last time they tried that, the guy fired his missiles. Clearly, the League won't listen to any talk until they've been taken down a few notches. Manticore has tried and tried and tried again to talk to the League. The League has crossed the line. Now Manticore has to force them to listen.

If the SL sued for peace, admitted fault in its actions and called for a secession of hostilities by the SLN, do you think the SEM would accept that? My impression is in A Rising Thunder, that the SEM had given up on the SL and wanted to just bring the entire thing crashing down into ruin. The bit that is quoted in the next book doesn't suggest otherwise either. The SEM will not allow the SL to exist anymore, now or in the future and that they are prepared to militarily if need be, break it up and keep -all- successor states below a certain size because they intend for their to never be any threat from the SL or SL systems to them ever again.

Unless that is thrown out the window and the SEM are willing to talk if the SL changes leadership (the Mandarins aren't going to be there forever and will be deposed, killed or flee), then the Harrington doctrine as its called, mandates the ruination and the SEM overseeing the future status of SL space. Or did I misread what Harrington was saying when she laid out her plan to deal with the SL?

Zakharra wrote: My biggest issue with the doctrine is the size. Manticore is setting itself up as the arbitrator of what is allowed and what isn't. If a large SL successor state, or a large section of the SL survives the collapse and offers up peace with the SEM, but declines to be friends (not enemies, just a wary peace. Kind of like what there was before the SEM/SL issues came into the open), do you think the SEM would leave it alone if the new state was larger than what it preferred? The implication I got is the SEM won't allow -any- SL nation state to exist above a certain size and would use military force to trim it down if need be.

SWM wrote:So yes, I believe Manticore would engage in peace talks if the League asked for them, but the League wouldn't like the negotations one bit. Manticore does not expect the League to be willing to talk until they have essentially lost the war.