SLN reserve possibilities

Duckk wrote:The second coming of pykrete ships!

Hutch wrote:Well, Duckk, at least I got it.

SWM wrote:I think a lot of us got it and just didn't see any reason to respond. It's not as if anyone is counting who has or hasn't gotten the reference.

But I just wanted to make Duckk feel good....

Castenea wrote:
I would expect that most of the ships actually present in the reserve would be missing one or more of usefull things that are at least in part bolt on outside of the armor, like sensor arrays. A minority of the ships present would be missing vital components that indicate someone opened the armor, like fusion reactors or compensators.

--------------------

You are MUCH to charitable to the scrounges of the SLN.
Most of the ships will be missing a LOT of their vital components. There might even be copies of the maintenance forms (descendent of the venerable 4790/2K) documenting their removal for a depot inspection then "lost in transit".

But then, the SLN reserve fleet is nothing but a parts bin right now.

-- Stewart

Hi Hutch,

You are so sensitive to others' feelings, It makes me all warm inside knowing you're such a friend, NTM a great poster.

Given operation Habakkuk [yup, I got it too] and 'The Shiva Option', what monster craft could the SL make out of comets by using all those scrapped drives and weapons to patrol the inner system in huge hidden CLAC's etc?

Hey its as good a suggestion as most I read.

L

Hutch wrote:

Duckk wrote:The second coming of pykrete ships!

Hutch wrote:Well, Duckk, at least I got it.

SWM wrote:I think a lot of us got it and just didn't see any reason to respond. It's not as if anyone is counting who has or hasn't gotten the reference.

But I just wanted to make Duckk feel good....

Returning late to the thread, apparently someone thought I was the one proposing that Reserve Fleet be converted to freighters. I might enjoy proposing interesting uses for old ships but having the SLN try to activate the Reserve for any reason whatsover is not one of them.

Even in RFC's main story arc, the Mandarin's know that they are so far up s--- creek without a paddle that the League is likely to fracture, and most of the Reserve Fleet is mothballed. It's been the bully hammer in the galaxy for centuries, guaranteed did not get the window dressing of the "fleet 2000" upgrades, which Frontier Fleet tacticians know are WORTHLESS.

Secondarily, they've been told that while they might have enough star systems in the League (including shipyards) to do the work, they won't have the money to build the type of ships they need to fight the RMN unless they attempt to impose direct taxation, something that presumably WOULD get the Solarian Assembly off it's collective arse and finally opposing where things are going. We don't know what will happen in the political uni-farce that is the SL, that's David's to decide.

Threads have discussed the fact that one thing the GA is not going to do is attack a core world. They want the sleeping tiger asleep in terms of simultaneous weapons development that might eventually re-arm the SLN with an adequate force mix. The Mandarins also want the SL populace to stay asleep; all it takes is a half-a-dozen pulsar darts to throw the bums out.

Remember, Mesa's goal was for Haven and Manticore to beat each other to their knees, then weaken the Solarian League enough that when the Renaissance Factor shows up, the SL systems would look to them as saviors, not RMN dominators. Problem is, Cachat et. al knocked the cover off "the onion", aka the Mesan Alignment's master plan, decades before they originally intended to move.

The General Alliance plus the Andermani have the only ships powerful enough to stop the Mesans, whose goal is galactic domination, and the Mesan Alignment has control of a wormhole entrance to the Haven Sector at Torch/Verdant Vista.

The SLN is a sideshow to the main action from now on, in terms of military force. For an *cough* old earth, pre-Diaspora example, imagine if all of the countries in Africa suddenly decided to cooperate to take out the British and US wet fleets, even if they had the resources enoug to buy fleets of of nearly state of their arts Russian or Chinese tech.

Do you really think that the entire continent of Africa, cooperating together, would be able to take on even ONE of the 2010 major wet-navy powers, let alone two, in anything under say, 50 T-years? The answer is no, but give them 8000 capable "pirate units" (Honorverse's Frontier Fleet's battlecruisers are the ships I am really referring to) operating in task forces, they could make life holy hell for everyone else.

Which is precisely why the Kingsford mindset is proposing commerce raiding as their main strategy, trying to force the "wet navies" out of battle mode into protection mode. It's the only strategy they have left which they can afford because those ships are already in commission and at least close to fully trained.

SharkHunter, just a few comments. I'm going to snip some of your long post to concentrate on the points I want to discuss.

SharkHunter wrote: *SNIP*

Secondarily, they've been told that while they might have enough star systems in the League (including shipyards) to do the work, they won't have the money to build the type of ships they need to fight the RMN unless they attempt to impose direct taxation, something that presumably WOULD get the Solarian Assembly off it's collective arse and finally opposing where things are going. We don't know what will happen in the political uni-farce that is the SL, that's David's to decide.

And there you have a critical point--this is an economic war as much as it is a military one, and without the Haven/Beowulf alliance, it might have been one that Manticore could have lost (they have lost a large percent of their production capability and a corresponding large percent of their trade, which is going to cause HUGE problems, even with Beowulf and Haven's involvment.

But the SL may have it even worse, because they really don't have a stong central government to take the necessary actions across multiple planets--instead, I expect most if not all the SL members to ignore their fellow members and do what they feel will save 'their' economy, and everyone else can go hang.

Which will only accelerate the SL breakup...

Threads have discussed the fact that one thing the GA is not going to do is attack a core world. They want the sleeping tiger asleep in terms of simultaneous weapons development that might eventually re-arm the SLN with an adequate force mix. The Mandarins also want the SL populace to stay asleep; all it takes is a half-a-dozen pulsar darts to throw the bums out.

Well, not attack Sol System (which I and I think one other poster disagree with, but the multitudes have shouted us down...) but the other Core systems may get a visit or two. But I would agree, not so much an attack (except for obvious ISLN targets) as a reminder (and with diplomatic envoys) of 'better' times.

Remember, Mesa's goal was for Haven and Manticore to beat each other to their knees, then weaken the Solarian League enough that when the Renaissance Factor shows up, the SL systems would look to them as saviors, not RMN dominators. Problem is, Cachat et. al knocked the cover off "the onion", aka the Mesan Alignment's master plan, decades before they originally intended to move.

There has been discussion on exactly what the Onion had planned for the Haven Sector--and that those plans had changed with the growth in power and influence of Manticore. But as talked about in another thread (or maybe this one, it is hard to keep track these days), the 'plan' now in effect has been modified before and is now requiring serious patching.

The General Alliance plus the Andermani have the only ships powerful enough to stop the Mesans, whose goal is galactic domination, and the Mesan Alignment has control of a wormhole entrance to the Haven Sector at Torch/Verdant Vista.

I would argue that they don't have control of the Torch wormhole; they have denied its' use to others, however.

The SLN is a sideshow to the main action from now on, in terms of military force. For an *cough* old earth, pre-Diaspora example, imagine if all of the countries in Africa suddenly decided to cooperate to take out the British and US wet fleets, even if they had the resources enoug to buy fleets of of nearly state of their arts Russian or Chinese tech.

Do you really think that the entire continent of Africa, cooperating together, would be able to take on even ONE of the 2010 major wet-navy powers, let alone two, in anything under say, 50 T-years? The answer is no, but give them 8000 capable "pirate units" (Honorverse's Frontier Fleet's battlecruisers are the ships I am really referring to) operating in task forces, they could make life holy hell for everyone else.

I'm not sure I agree with your example, and the SL has to be dealt with, since it does have the undeniable capability to do research and build fleets that neither the GA or the MAlignment could defeat. It is in both the MAlignmnet and GA's interest to see that the SL does not exist to do that.

What follows next is where the MAlignment and the GA differ.

Which is precisely why the Kingsford mindset is proposing commerce raiding as their main strategy, trying to force the "wet navies" out of battle mode into protection mode. It's the only strategy they have left which they can afford because those ships are already in commission and at least close to fully trained.

It's the best that he has. But I would remind him of Nathan Bedford Forrest raiding Sherman's supply lines after the fall of Atlanta. Sherman's response was leave sufficient forces so he (and Hood) could not do significant damage and then march across Georgia (and later the Carolinas). Ask folks there how that turned out for the Confederacy...

Nice post, lots of ideas there, sharkhunter.

Here's something way, way out in left field. You know all them SD's in the SLN reserve. Well turn them SD(P)'s by chopping them in half and building on an aft section that is a hollow core for missal pods.

saber964 wrote:Here's something way, way out in left field. You know all them SD's in the SLN reserve. Well turn them SD(P)'s by chopping them in half and building on an aft section that is a hollow core for missal pods.

Easier would be to build new ship, you really don't want to cut through few meters of armor, when they were talking in HH3 about replacing the reactor they said that cutting though armor is pain in the ass. SDs have tougher armor so cutting it will take a long time even for something with extensive support equipment. Better idea would be to turn them into raw resources and re-use them. David in one of the infodump said that rebuilding SD will shave something like 30% of time, but it will be one of the worst designs in universe.

Draken wrote:

saber964 wrote:Here's something way, way out in left field. You know all them SD's in the SLN reserve. Well turn them SD(P)'s by chopping them in half and building on an aft section that is a hollow core for missal pods.

Easier would be to build new ship, you really don't want to cut through few meters of armor, when they were talking in HH3 about replacing the reactor they said that cutting though armor is pain in the ass. SDs have tougher armor so cutting it will take a long time even for something with extensive support equipment. Better idea would be to turn them into raw resources and re-use them. David in one of the infodump said that rebuilding SD will shave something like 30% of time, but it will be one of the worst designs in universe.

Well considering how brain dead the SLN/SL is they might just go ahead and do it anyway.

saber964 wrote:Here's something way, way out in left field. You know all them SD's in the SLN reserve. Well turn them SD(P)'s by chopping them in half and building on an aft section that is a hollow core for missal pods.

I don't think anybody has a hacksaw capable of that job!!!

Those of you who read "A Call to Duty" in the Manticore Ascendant series where they did just that to a Battlecruiser to try to get two ships instead of one for rescue purposes in Manitcore's inner system? Really didn't work out very well, as I recall.

Don

n7axw wrote:

saber964 wrote:Here's something way, way out in left field. You know all them SD's in the SLN reserve. Well turn them SD(P)'s by chopping them in half and building on an aft section that is a hollow core for missal pods.

I don't think anybody has a hacksaw capable of that job!!!

Those of you who read "A Call to Duty" in the Manticore Ascendant series where they did just that to a Battlecruiser to try to get two ships instead of one for rescue purposes in Manitcore's inner system? Really didn't work out very well, as I recall.

Don

I'm not sure the SLN has figured out that there is such a thing as an SD(P). Remember that the only time they have come up against SDs was at Second Manticore, and there it was primarily system defense missiles that did the damage, not the SD(P)s, in addition to which we don't have much textev about how much the SLN has been told about the details of second Manticore, just that it occurred and that the SLN basically took it in the shorts.