A question about the destruction of Admiral Filareta

--snipping--, about the plot wrinkle not taken...

fallsfromtrees wrote:

JeffEngel wrote: A good piece of confusion aboard that ship and the remainder of the SLN fleet; hurried verification of the basics (flag bridge gone, Filareta gone, pods gone) between the next in command and the flag captain; communications resume, probably followed by surrender.

Unless the shock of the pods going boom made someone start firing broadsides in shock and panic, in which case things go pretty much historically.

Except that Filareta doesn't give the order to destroy the pods, and it was that order that appeared to be the trigger for the nanotech to cause the pods to launch. What Filareta does do is order the COMM officer to order all chips to strike their wedges, and the ops officer never has a reason to go near his panel. So now what?

Interesting, no? I wonder how the Mandarin's would have spun that surrender video? Especially when a Manticoran tech starts looking at Filereta's bridge computers and says "hey, Admiral F. and officers did you know there was a bomb installed under here to blow y'all to kingdom come? Would you like to add an appendix to your surrender report? and the ops officer still has the killer nanotech inside his body waiting to fire...

Not sure if this point has been raised by someone else, but:

1- the Mesan Alignment wanted 11th Fleet very publicly destroyed by Manticore
2- it provided enhanced missiles to 11th Fleet to make them overconfident
3- it placed a nano-controlled patsy on the flag bridge to issue a launch order for the missiles, with a stored muscle memory of a special launch code unknown to the command staff
4- it planted a bomb on the flag bridge to disrupt the chain of command at the critical moment

I find it impossible to believe that they wouldn't program the missiles so that, once they had received the special launch code, the self destruct circuits would be locked out.

The tube launched missiles might be a different matter, but I'm sure the pod missiles would have had that feature

nrellis wrote:Not sure if this point has been raised by someone else, but:

1- the Mesan Alignment wanted 11th Fleet very publicly destroyed by Manticore
2- it provided enhanced missiles to 11th Fleet to make them overconfident
3- it placed a nano-controlled patsy on the flag bridge to issue a launch order for the missiles, with a stored muscle memory of a special launch code unknown to the command staff
4- it planted a bomb on the flag bridge to disrupt the chain of command at the critical moment

I find it impossible to believe that they wouldn't program the missiles so that, once they had received the special launch code, the self destruct circuits would be locked out.

The tube launched missiles might be a different matter, but I'm sure the pod missiles would have had that feature

That's where the "what if" question got interesting for me as well, that is "what if the GA had blown their pods, was the patsy's programming enough to attempt a launch anyway?" because if it wasn't, or the fire and forget code" sent an "all ships fire now" signal to the other ships, then I don't think a lockout was possible. But if the nanotech never kicks in, the fire and forget signal would have never been sent.... ?

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--, about the plot wrinkle not taken...

fallsfromtrees wrote: quote= JeffEngel A good piece of confusion aboard that ship and the remainder of the SLN fleet; hurried verification of the basics (flag bridge gone, Filareta gone, pods gone) between the next in command and the flag captain; communications resume, probably followed by surrender.

Unless the shock of the pods going boom made someone start firing broadsides in shock and panic, in which case things go pretty much historically. quote
Except that Filareta doesn't give the order to destroy the pods, and it was that order that appeared to be the trigger for the nanotech to cause the pods to launch. What Filareta does do is order the COMM officer to order all chips to strike their wedges, and the ops officer never has a reason to go near his panel. So now what?

Interesting, no? I wonder how the Mandarin's would have spun that surrender video? Especially when a Manticoran tech starts looking at Filereta's bridge computers and says "hey, Admiral F. and officers did you know there was a bomb installed under here to blow y'all to kingdom come? Would you like to add an appendix to your surrender report? and the ops officer still has the killer nanotech inside his body waiting to fire...

What flag bridge computer? That ship was pretty much totaled, turned into so much orbiting debris or plasma on the solar wind.

Also, if Honor had attacked the pods in/around Admiral Filareta's ships, that would have been seen as a direct attack on his fleet and he would have been obliged to return fire. Honor went as far as she could without actually firing on the SL fleet to dissuade Filareta. So her shooting down his pods is a Bad Thing if she is trying to talk him into surrendering without any shooting.

Zakharra wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:--snipping--
Except that Filareta doesn't give the order to destroy the pods, and it was that order that appeared to be the trigger for the nanotech to cause the pods to launch. What Filareta does do is order the COMM officer to order all chips to strike their wedges, and the ops officer never has a reason to go near his panel. So now what?

SharkHunter wrote:Interesting, no? I wonder how the Mandarin's would have spun that surrender video? Especially when a Manticoran tech starts looking at Filereta's bridge computers and says "hey, Admiral F. and officers did you know there was a bomb installed under here to blow y'all to kingdom come? Would you like to add an appendix to your surrender report? and the ops officer still has the killer nanotech inside his body waiting to fire...

What flag bridge computer? That ship was pretty much totaled, turned into so much orbiting debris or plasma on the solar wind... Also, if Honor had attacked the pods in/around Admiral Filareta's ships, that would have been seen as a direct attack on his fleet and he would have been obliged to return fire. Honor went as far as she could without actually firing on the SL fleet to dissuade Filareta. So her shooting down his pods is a Bad Thing if she is trying to talk him into surrendering without any shooting.

Jeff's point is that the patsy wouldn't have blown the flag bridge because his programming wouldn't have kicked in. My point is that Filerata was ready to surrender anyway; blowing his pods first would have also left him the question of "shoot with what?" because IIRC ONLY the pods have the Cataphract-C's -- he can't even range on the Manticoran formations any more. Plus the SLN admirals, captains, tac officers, etc. still wouldn't have known HOW they blew the pods up without a detectable missile launch. Try spinning that little detail for the Sollie public or for the SLN Admiralty... "Admiral Kingsford? they blew up all the pods first, forcing F. to surrender. And we don't know how they did it..."

Two things:
1) the SLN had internal cataphracts with the range to engage the GA (mentioned in transit to Manticore, also, otherwise how would they have launched follow up salvos)

2)I agree Zakharra: Filareta fired first, and it started with those pods, so Honor would have had to initiate hostilities, which she was trying to avoid, if she wanted to destroy the pods before they fired

Not to cause any trouble for Honor-- But why haven't her enemies pointed out that in an attempt to save Solly lives --she got a bunch of her own people killed?

Not the job of an Admiral to save lives of sailors who are doing their level best to destroy your civilization.
And to get her own people killed would seem to be a court martial offense.

tootall wrote:Not to cause any trouble for Honor-- But why haven't her enemies pointed out that in an attempt to save Solly lives --she got a bunch of her own people killed?

Not the job of an Admiral to save lives of sailors who are doing their level best to destroy your civilization.
And to get her own people killed would seem to be a court martial offense.

Anyone that tried that would be labeled a moron and laughed out of the room by everyone. There was only about 2,000 RMN dead and about, what, a million SLN dead? The difference in casualties is staggering. Especially compared to the last Battle of Manticore. By now the Manticore navy and public is used to casualties. They would all be astounded at how few there are of the RMN even with the massive tech advantage the RMN and RHN had at the battle. To think that once the shooting started, there wouldn't be any casualties is foolish of any of Honor's enemies.

Zakharra wrote:

tootall wrote:Not to cause any trouble for Honor-- But why haven't her enemies pointed out that in an attempt to save Solly lives --she got a bunch of her own people killed?

Not the job of an Admiral to save lives of sailors who are doing their level best to destroy your civilization.
And to get her own people killed would seem to be a court martial offense.

Anyone that tried that would be labeled a moron and laughed out of the room by everyone. There was only about 2,000 RMN dead and about, what, a million SLN dead? The difference in casualties is staggering. Especially compared to the last Battle of Manticore. By now the Manticore navy and public is used to casualties. They would all be astounded at how few there are of the RMN even with the massive tech advantage the RMN and RHN had at the battle. To think that once the shooting started, there wouldn't be any casualties is foolish of any of Honor's enemies.

Besides which, the battle plan that Honor used was approved at the highest civilian levels of the government. The Queen, the First Lord and the First Space Lord, as well as the President of the Republic of Haven, the Protector of Grayson, and the Chairman of the Board of the Planetary System of Beowulf. You don't even think of trying to court martial someone following the orders of her civilian superiors.

tootall wrote:Not to cause any trouble for Honor-- But why haven't her enemies pointed out that in an attempt to save Solly lives --she got a bunch of her own people killed?

Not the job of an Admiral to save lives of sailors who are doing their level best to destroy your civilization.
And to get her own people killed would seem to be a court martial offense.

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Honor had not attempted to save Solly lives; it is afterward (and in near privacy) that she regretted ordering the response launch.
The LAC crews were lost in the missile intercept role when (likely) the unguided Solly missiles went for the LAC's as viable targets of opportunity.

-- Stewart