Honerveres vs Trekies

Daryl wrote:Slightly surreal. This is a site dedicated to the Honorverse where almost infinite discussion ensues on serious scientific and astrophysics matters with serious extrapolation involving theoretical future developments, yet we are discussing comparisons with a pop culture light drama?
When people ask me if I'm a Trekie, I say"No, I'm into SCIENCE Fiction".

I agree. Babylon 5 is far superior to Star Trek.

Michael Everett wrote:

Daryl wrote:Slightly surreal. This is a site dedicated to the Honorverse where almost infinite discussion ensues on serious scientific and astrophysics matters with serious extrapolation involving theoretical future developments, yet we are discussing comparisons with a pop culture light drama?
When people ask me if I'm a Trekie, I say"No, I'm into SCIENCE Fiction".

I agree. Babylon 5 is far superior to Star Trek.

STAR WARS FOR THE WIN!!!!!!

Charles83 wrote:

Michael Everett wrote:

Daryl wrote:Slightly surreal. This is a site dedicated to the Honorverse where almost infinite discussion ensues on serious scientific and astrophysics matters with serious extrapolation involving theoretical future developments, yet we are discussing comparisons with a pop culture light drama?
When people ask me if I'm a Trekie, I say"No, I'm into SCIENCE Fiction".

I agree. Babylon 5 is far superior to Star Trek.

STAR WARS FOR THE WIN!!!!!!

While the death Star is a very fearsome opponent and it can take out planets and SD's the SD 's in the meantime will be pounding the death star to pieces with mass swarms of missiles. i figure a full blown manti launch of around 250k missiles can easily take the death star out of the equation and then on the star destroyers will be toast for follow up missiles

viciokie wrote:While the death Star is a very fearsome opponent and it can take out planets and SD's the SD 's in the meantime will be pounding the death star to pieces with mass swarms of missiles. i figure a full blown manti launch of around 250k missiles can easily take the death star out of the equation and then on the star destroyers will be toast for follow up missiles

Not really while the death star like any other ISD suffer from TRD (Trench Run Disease), against other capital ships (and the SD of the honorverse are capital ships) the death star have shields, this shields are specially effective against almost any kind of weapon and the problem with the death star it was that it has a lot more redundancy on its shield than any other ship alive.

To explain a little bit ISD ussually had 1 or 2 shield emmitters per zone, don't remember right now how large a zone was but a normal ISD had around 20 to 30 shield emmitters to cover its entire surface. The mon calamari cruiser had shield redundancy, that ussually meant that they sacrificed weaponry to have more energy for shield so they had at least twice the ammount of shield emmitters, when 2 of those shield emitters started to get weak they went offline and started to recharge themselves while the other 2 covered the same zone, so you had shield redundancy so ussually mon calamari cruiser needed a lot more heavier attacks so you could take the principal shield and the backup as fast as you could, now the death star put shield redundancy to a level that its ridiculous you need a fleet of thousands upon thousands of ships just to reduce the shield and be able to start pounding on the armor.

The shields work with practically everything that moves high speed or is an energy weapon (so missiles and beams will be stopped by the shield) but fighters or in the case of the Honorverse LACs are too slow and the shield wont stop them, now the big advantage in the honorverse is that some LACs mount very heavy energy weapons, if you combine that with TRD you can easily destroy all kind of capital ships and possibly also the death star, also remember that the turbolaser that they use on star wars is extremely long ranged, and there is a new version on the books that is more energy intensive and can easily shoot from sphinx to manticore, thats one that is extra long range turbolaser.

I would need to dust off a lot of my old notes about ship capabilities in star wars, and I would need a full analysis of ship capabilities in the honorverse (we dont have that one for sure because manticore continue pushing the envelope) to make a better comparission, in a fight between capital ships of the honorverse and star wars, it would be hard to say, all the armament in star wars is energy based except baradium missiles and those are really BAD news, while in the honorverse they are starting with lasers and grazers, you could say that grazers is the equivalent of the turbolaser but if I remember the range of those weapons the one in star wars have more distance.

So while I think that between the honorverse and star wars the fight is close, 250,000 missiles to take out the death star is a very good joke, that wouldnt even worry the death star, that you have seen the weakest point in star wars that is TRD, doesnt mean that they are so easy to take out, I would like to make a more detailed analisys but I dont want this post to get longer than it is already.

ISD Imperial Star Destroyer
TRD Trench Run Disease

I need to look for the exact info on the baradium missiles but they are on the hundreds of gigaton range of explosive force and the shields of a capital ship can withstand 1 of those but not 2. Mon calamari cruiser could withstand 2 baradium missiles thanks to the redundancy not 3 (I'm talking same battle since if you give enough time the shields recharge), Death star the number is unknown since no one went againts one in a frontal attack. FYI baradium is used on the thermal detonators, of course one of the little grenades have only a few miligrams of baradium combined with a couple of other element and have the same force as around 1kg of C4, and you can see a thermal detonator when leia threaten Jabba in the sixth movie, most of the granade is a stabilizer so the baradium doesnt explode accidentally since is extremely unstable.

Hey. NASA asked for the design of the Babylon 5 Starfury, with intent to use it as the basis of their parasite-craft for the next generation space station.

B5 shows NASA the way.

The only other major sci-fi to do that was Arthur C. Clarke, who posited geosynchronous orbit and the Space Elavator.

Quod Erat Demonstratum.

Honorverse missiles have wedges. One of them hitting the Deathstar would be bad.

Taking that further, superdreadnoughts have wedges. Wedges larger than the Deathstar. So an SD can turn its wedge towards the Deathstar to negate all directed energy fire then accelerate with reaction thrusters till its wedge hits the Deathstar. Whoops! No more Deathstar.

Belial666 wrote:Honorverse missiles have wedges. One of them hitting the Deathstar would be bad.

Taking that further, superdreadnoughts have wedges. Wedges larger than the Deathstar. So an SD can turn its wedge towards the Deathstar to negate all directed energy fire then accelerate with reaction thrusters till its wedge hits the Deathstar. Whoops! No more Deathstar.

Ok i've been re reading about wedges on the pearls and while I dont know if they can be compared with the shields in the SW universe is the one thing that come closer, so far they tell you that no weapon in the honorverse is strong enough to burn through the wedge, I should point to you that laser weapons in the SW universe are considerably more powerful than those that you find here in the honorverse so you really dont know if the wedge will be impenetrable, since even on the pearls of weber it talks about the weapons of the honorverse, not about weapons who are more powerful. Second point the wedge is an energy barrier who block practically everything, I dont know but while the shields on star wars are also an energy barrier I know that they dont usually interact with ships but when you are going to hit the death star with the wedge it comes in contact the 2 energy barriers, the shields of the death star and the energy of the wedge, now if you see on the pearls it clearly say and I quote

Pearls of Weber wrote:to take down an impeller wedge through a brute application of force requires an impeller wedge at least as powerful as the wedge you are trying to destroy. The more powerful wedge, always destroys the weaker wedge, and the more powerful wedge's generating nodes take no damage in the process.

Now yeah you have a 300km wedge of an SD but an SD have only the power plants that he can fit inside of it (the SD is around 1 km large or so), while the death star is a 160 km (the first death star) station who has uncountable power plants dedicated to give energy to the shield, so in sheer power I think the wedge in the SD is going to blow out without causing damage to the death star.

Im not trying to say that the star wars its better but an impeller wedge is not the weapon of doom that you think, I need to make an assumption that because the impeller wedge is an energy barrier, its going to interact with the shield of star wars who are also energy barriers. If I don't do this assumption then the comparison is impossible.

Also because of this the missile will need to detonate to weaken the shields or found a way to penetrate the shield and detonate inside so it can make damage to whatever it is on the other side. Because again if we assume that the wedges are energy barrier, is very very hard that a wedge generated by a missile will be tougher that a barrier generated by a station, so if the missile try to plow brute force through it, its only going to get destroyed in the proccess.

Except that a wedge doesn't take the majority of its energy from the ship. It siphons it from the higher hyperspace band by creating a sort of "window" between the two dimensions where energy and momentum can be traded.

For example, a superdreadnought going at a mere 14% lightspeed has more kinetic energy than its entire mass would give if it was hydrogen that underwent fusion. A superdreadnought going at 80% lightspeed has as much kinetic energy as its mass in antimatter. That's equivalent to the energy output of a few main sequence stars for a few seconds... or the blast of the Death Star's main gun.
Given that a wedge is powerful enough to accelerate a starship to lightspeed instantaneously (with the minor drawback of obliterating the starship in question) you can point a starship towards a planet (or the deathstar), disable all safeguards and do it. The starship will be obliterated but its debris will still impact with the power of a deathstar's beam, obliterating a planet (or the Death Star.

Secondly, even the most powerful shields in the Star Wars universe are subject to kinetic attacks. When the Yuzhan Vong attacked Corruscant for example, they overloaded the planetary shield by ramming it with freighters full of civilians (so that the defenders would not shoot them but that's irrelevant here)
Wedges and sidewalls are invulnerable to kinetic attacks and even extremely powerful energy attacks will penetrate but not weaken the wedge or sidewall.

But most importantly, range and type of weaponry. Star Wars still fights with mostly directed energy weapons. And no matter how powerful they are, these kinds of weapons are lightspeed-limited and thus will miss against typical Honorverse ships for many reasons.





Ultimately though, the Honorverse loses unless they resort to planet-busting (which all of their ships could do). The Star Wars universe has easily more inhabited planets than the Honorverse has starships - and that would inlcude civilian starships. Even at a 50 to 1 effectiveness, they lose because they are outnumbered over 1000 to 1.

Belial im going to be very blunt, did you turn off your brain at any moment, you are doing the typical mistake that everyone makes when they try to compare 2 different dimensional sci-fi universes, in little you are going to the extremes, what were my options at the beggining and I never said that the death star was invincible, put a wall of battle so they can defend each other, use LACs because even the death star suffer from TRD and then fight it on, use missiles and countermissiles against the hordes of fighters that the death star can use, try to overload the shield of other capital ships, there could be some misses and the battle can be bloody but im trying to do the analisys as a commander who is thinking with his brain and not his balls.

In little, the battle will probably be a death ride, but with good planning, and knowing the strenght and weaknesses of the ships on the star wars universe, I think that some of our beloved characters who try very hard to use tactics and strategy, can found a way to do battle without commiting suicide, also in star wars you have the same problem while there is lot of people, real strategist are rare, I'm not going to doomsday solutions, because if we go to that extreme the honorverse is screwed up, I'm trying simply to put the two fleets one against the other.

I engaged my brain in a little exercise and even if you tried to use the wedge against the death star that means that your a sitting duck and there are ways to use that against you before you come in contact with the death star shields.

Star Wars Intradictor Class Cruisers, which generate a simulated gravity well that prohibits translation into hyper...

Interesting tactical possibilities.

An engagement that isn't within the hyper limit which should be a skirmish anyone can break off from suddenly becomes one which is now a pounding match merely to escape...