Question about Beowulf tactics

Brigade XO wrote:Recall, if you will, that Beowulf was getting the information that they passed along to Manticore reguarding Fillerta from someone deep in the SL or at least SLN.

Given the need for planning and tasking ships to "do something" about Beowulf or interfer/"correct" any vote to leave the League, isn't likely that the same source would at least try to pass the information along? You remember, number of ships where they were placed, who's in command, what time they are showing up?

Either message gets though in time or not. If someone in SLN- ONI in brought in to deal with the leak and gets creative, they MIGHT send disinformation.Of course if they do- Beowulf positions to trap it and a decoy force (or perhaps just one ship to snoop) shows up and gets a look at what Beowulf wants them to see (even if they haven't shifted forces) the result may be the snooper tries to call off the strike when they see a gazillion missile pods in system and a LOT of gravatronic signals indicating that this might be a really really really unhealthy place for a hundred or so SLN SD.

I like the slant of your story line, the attack is going to take place and Beowulf does get their hands on the plans and they make a very successful defense of Beowulf. However, I disagree with the idea that a “snoop” ship gets in to see that a trap is waiting.

First of all, the missile pods are invisible unless you intentionally light them up to be seen by the enemy. Second, I want the attack to happen so Beowulf has justification for a retaliatory action. An action that will be backed up by the GA. Third, I want to further degrade the SLN capability by capturing more ships. And Tsang's 100 of the wall plus escort is not enough. I want it to be 200 of the wall and escort. I want that 1,500 of the wall that Filareta talked about to be hugely reduced. They have lost Filareta's 400 and some, now they need to loose another large chunk. Get the SLN down close to half or two-thirds of it's original SD strength, that would be good.

Just tossing it out there....

Is there any reason that the RMN wouldn't sell a small squadron of Sag-C's and Rolands,initially crewed by active duty RMN crews who volunteered (family relations to Beowulf, maybe a dual citizenship kinda thing, perhaps?), plus a couple of mil-spec freighters worth of Mark-25 pods to the BSDF simply by having a plenipotentiary admiral for the RMN on board the command ship of the BSDF at all times? In comes the SLN, sign on the dotted lines, transponder codes change from RMN to BSDF units, and we're off...

Weight of metal wise, it's a similar ratio so I'm sorta picturing a First Hancock writ large with the terminus RMN ships acting as Danislav's arriving squadrons, or astrographically like the Protector's own showing up at the Battle of Sidemore Station. Who knows? maybe Truman's ships out by the terminus are deployed outside the wormhole's RZ so that they can microjump into that exact position(s) they need to be relative to Beowulf and the hyper limit within minutes of an SLN fleet crossing the point of no return.

It's not like the SL would ever find or even get a whisper about who is crewing the ships doing most of the mayhem before the big ships in the BSDF even have to get involved.

SharkHunter wrote:Just tossing it out there....

Is there any reason that the RMN wouldn't sell a small squadron of Sag-C's and Rolands,initially crewed by active duty RMN crews who volunteered (family relations to Beowulf, maybe a dual citizenship kinda thing, perhaps?), plus a couple of mil-spec freighters worth of Mark-25 pods to the BSDF simply by having a plenipotentiary admiral for the RMN on board the command ship of the BSDF at all times? In comes the SLN, sign on the dotted lines, transponder codes change from RMN to BSDF units, and we're off...

Weight of metal wise, it's a similar ratio so I'm sorta picturing a First Hancock writ large with the terminus RMN ships acting as Danislav's arriving squadrons, or astrographically like the Protector's own showing up at the Battle of Sidemore Station. Who knows? maybe Truman's ships out by the terminus are deployed outside the wormhole's RZ so that they can microjump into that exact position(s) they need to be relative to Beowulf and the hyper limit within minutes of an SLN fleet crossing the point of no return.

It's not like the SL would ever find or even get a whisper about who is crewing the ships doing most of the mayhem before the big ships in the BSDF even have to get involved.

An intriguing thought. Manticore would get full credit for the presence of the Sag-Cs...whether she wanted it or not. And quite frankly what you are describing would only be a subtrafuge. Just as well send the Sags in under their own colors.

Don

SharkHunter wrote:Just tossing it out there....

Is there any reason that the RMN wouldn't sell a small squadron of Sag-C's and Rolands,initially crewed by active duty RMN crews who volunteered (family relations to Beowulf, maybe a dual citizenship kinda thing, perhaps?), plus a couple of mil-spec freighters worth of Mark-25 pods to the BSDF simply by having a plenipotentiary admiral for the RMN on board the command ship of the BSDF at all times? In comes the SLN, sign on the dotted lines, transponder codes change from RMN to BSDF units, and we're off...

Weight of metal wise, it's a similar ratio so I'm sorta picturing a First Hancock writ large with the terminus RMN ships acting as Danislav's arriving squadrons, or astrographically like the Protector's own showing up at the Battle of Sidemore Station. Who knows? maybe Truman's ships out by the terminus are deployed outside the wormhole's RZ so that they can microjump into that exact position(s) they need to be relative to Beowulf and the hyper limit within minutes of an SLN fleet crossing the point of no return.

It's not like the SL would ever find or even get a whisper about who is crewing the ships doing most of the mayhem before the big ships in the BSDF even have to get involved.

Thing is, could Manticore really sell anything to Beowulf before the vote? I know that Manticore is already supplying Mycroft and associated missiles, but those are defensive weapons, they can't be moved out of the system. Even so, technically Beowulf is still part of the SL. At what point could the SL claim that Beowoulf was being traitorous by having access to critical technology and not sharing it with the SLN? How many SLN lives is Beowulf committing to a fate of death by not sharing that information?? It's all dancing on a razor's edge. To me it seems as though having a whole ship worth of technology would just make it worse. Then again, in for a penny, in for a pound.

But what ever happens in the defense of Beowulf you can't at any point uncover the terminus. Those forces have got to remain there. But how about a few squadron's of Haven SD's sitting in hyper waiting for a change to mouse trap a bunch of SLN SD's. But then again, it would be nice if they were RMN ships that could provide fire control for sysem defense missile pods if Mycroft isn't all the way up and functional.

--snipping--

StealthSeeker wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Is there any reason that the RMN wouldn't sell a small squadron of Sag-C's and Rolands,initially crewed by active duty RMN crews who volunteered (family relations to Beowulf, maybe a dual citizenship kinda thing, perhaps?), plus a couple of mil-spec freighters worth of Mark-25 pods to the BSDF simply by having a plenipotentiary admiral for the RMN on board the command ship of the BSDF at all times? In comes the SLN, sign on the dotted lines, transponder codes change from RMN to BSDF units, and we're off...
...

Thing is, could Manticore really sell anything to Beowulf before the vote? I know that Manticore is already supplying Mycroft and associated missiles, but those are defensive weapons, they can't be moved out of the system. Even so, technically Beowulf is still part of the SL. At what point could the SL claim that Beowoulf was being traitorous by having access to critical technology and not sharing it with the SLN? How many SLN lives is Beowulf committing to a fate of death by not sharing that information?? It's all dancing on a razor's edge. To me it seems as though having a whole ship worth of technology would just make it worse. Then again, in for a penny, in for a pound.
...

The SL is already claiming that Beowulf is in the position of "traitor providing an attack avenue to Old Earth", because it's pretty obvious that Truman's fleet would have no trouble decimating everything in the Sol system without breaking a sweat, because Tsang never even knew the Manticoran ships were there. So the powers that be on Beowulf don't give a rip about the Mandarin's opinions, and the moment an attack fleet comes after them, ANYTHING is on the table, because Beowulf has the right to defend their own planet.

Beowulf's SDF forces also have to have some way to significantly outrange, Cataphract combinations, and only GA missiles can do that. The admiral as "signing plenipotentiary" concept would presumably have "interstellar legality" meaning that the BSDF is just defending itself; an admiral can also commit the RMN to defend a planet even without a fully signed treaty a la HotQ, just like Crandall felt entitled to go after Spindle under her ability to issue orders.

The League might not like it and argue the timing, but it's still presumably valid and legal whether or not there's an "interstellar law" that the Mandarins will respect at all at this time point in the HonorVerse. That is another argument entirely.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

StealthSeeker wrote:
Thing is, could Manticore really sell anything to Beowulf before the vote? I know that Manticore is already supplying Mycroft and associated missiles, but those are defensive weapons, they can't be moved out of the system. Even so, technically Beowulf is still part of the SL. At what point could the SL claim that Beowoulf was being traitorous by having access to critical technology and not sharing it with the SLN? How many SLN lives is Beowulf committing to a fate of death by not sharing that information?? It's all dancing on a razor's edge. To me it seems as though having a whole ship worth of technology would just make it worse. Then again, in for a penny, in for a pound.
...

The SL is already claiming that Beowulf is in the position of "traitor providing an attack avenue to Old Earth", because it's pretty obvious that Truman's fleet would have no trouble decimating everything in the Sol system without breaking a sweat, because Tsang never even knew the Manticoran ships were there. So the powers that be on Beowulf don't give a rip about the Mandarin's opinions, and the moment an attack fleet comes after them, ANYTHING is on the table, because Beowulf has the right to defend their own planet.

Beowulf's SDF forces also have to have some way to significantly outrange, Cataphract combinations, and only GA missiles can do that. The admiral as "signing plenipotentiary" concept would presumably have "interstellar legality" meaning that the BSDF is just defending itself; an admiral can also commit the RMN to defend a planet even without a fully signed treaty a la HotQ, just like Crandall felt entitled to go after Spindle under her ability to issue orders.

The League might not like it and argue the timing, but it's still presumably valid and legal whether or not there's an "interstellar law" that the Mandarins will respect at all at this time point in the HonorVerse. That is another argument entirely.

First, I have to admit to playing a bit of devil's advocate in my previous reply. But it's the fun of the political and military conundrums that Mr. Weber paints people into the corner with in his books. The question always becomes, in what way can the conundrum be solved while causing the fewest problems? The Mandarins are always going to spin every situation to place blame on someone else. So how can things be done in a way that limits what the Mandarins can do and yet be extremely effective in accomplishing the desired goal.

At the end of ART everyone in the GA side of things is trying to do their best to limit what the Mandarins have available to use in their spin doctor world. Putting anything into Beowulf that is not fully controlled by Beowulf would seem to be a problem at this particular time in the HonorVerse. Putting war ships in Beowulf space thinly veiled by ownership but with Manty crews would seem to provide the Mandarins with lots of material to "spin."

I am a proponent of giving/selling enough missiles to Beowulf such that they can walk on them like paving stones from the moon to the hyper limit. They would be fully under the control of Beowulf so it limits what spin the Mandarins can put on it, other than claiming that Beowulf had access to critical technology and did not share it with the rest of the SL. But they may not be able to control so many missiles if Mycroft isn't up and running in time. Which means that the RMN will have to find a way to effectively respond to a request for help from Beowulf once the confrontation begins. The mind spins with possibilities.

Woke up this morning with a NEW plan for our friends in Beowulf...AKA they don't need Mycroft or the RMN to win a battle with any size formation of the SLN...at least until Mycroft is ready or the secession election is complete. They need...

Moriarty, and a heaping big dish of... RHN. Thomas Theisman aka the Republic of Haven's Secretary of War was on Honor's flag bridge during Filareta's folly, and pretty much told the Sollies that the Mandarin's are too stupid to be allowed to be large and in charge. So it's not news that Haven is at war with any SLN formation nearby their own.

So all he has to do is take Lester & Co. with him for a state visit to Beowulf escorting Honor's uncle and Steadholder Harrington & Michael Mayhew as Grayson's plenitotentiary (and her formations; Protector Benjamin insisted) and...

Many large ka-booms or unceremonious striking of wedges ensue. None of them RHN, GSN, or Beowulfan, I might add.

SharkHunter wrote:Woke up this morning with a NEW plan for our friends in Beowulf...AKA they don't need Mycroft or the RMN to win a battle with any size formation of the SLN...at least until Mycroft is ready or the secession election is complete. They need...

Moriarty, and a heaping big dish of... RHN. Thomas Theisman aka the Republic of Haven's Secretary of War was on Honor's flag bridge during Filareta's folly, and pretty much told the Sollies that the Mandarin's are too stupid to be allowed to be large and in charge. So it's not news that Haven is at war with any SLN formation nearby their own.

So all he has to do is take Lester & Co. with him for a state visit to Beowulf escorting Honor's uncle and Steadholder Harrington & Michael Mayhew as Grayson's plenitotentiary (and her formations; Protector Benjamin insisted) and...

Many large ka-booms or unceremonious striking of wedges ensue. None of them RHN, GSN, or Beowulfan, I might add.

The political hay to be made just ends up a slightly different flavor - the Mandarins can safely assume the cows will still eat it. In this scenario, Beowulf is being leaned on by the Republic of Haven: Manticore's partner in crime, diverted from unproductive fighting with them for the choicer, tastier prey of the peace-loving, wealthy Solarian League. Beowulf - half dupe, half victim - is merely the first course for these ravening conquistadors!

JeffEngel wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Woke up this morning with a NEW plan for our friends in Beowulf...AKA they don't need Mycroft or the RMN to win a battle with any size formation of the SLN...at least until Mycroft is ready or the secession election is complete. They need...

Moriarty, and a heaping big dish of... RHN. Thomas Theisman aka the Republic of Haven's Secretary of War was on Honor's flag bridge during Filareta's folly, and pretty much told the Sollies that the Mandarin's are too stupid to be allowed to be large and in charge. So it's not news that Haven is at war with any SLN formation nearby their own.

So all he has to do is take Lester & Co. with him for a state visit to Beowulf escorting Honor's uncle and Steadholder Harrington & Michael Mayhew as Grayson's plenitotentiary (and her formations; Protector Benjamin insisted) and...

Many large ka-booms or unceremonious striking of wedges ensue. None of them RHN, GSN, or Beowulfan, I might add.

The political hay to be made just ends up a slightly different flavor - the Mandarins can safely assume the cows will still eat it. In this scenario, Beowulf is being leaned on by the Republic of Haven: Manticore's partner in crime, diverted from unproductive fighting with them for the choicer, tastier prey of the peace-loving, wealthy Solarian League. Beowulf - half dupe, half victim - is merely the first course for these ravening conquistadors!

Agreed!! But I don't think either Thomas or Benjamin give a flying fig about the Mandarin's fictional unifarce. Especially if there's enough SL newsies in system listening to Theisman tell the SLN to bugger off for duration of their state visit. OR... the election happens first and the Beowulfan public and the SL public never knew there was more than a ship or two nearby to begin with.

SharkHunter wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:The political hay to be made just ends up a slightly different flavor - the Mandarins can safely assume the cows will still eat it. In this scenario, Beowulf is being leaned on by the Republic of Haven: Manticore's partner in crime, diverted from unproductive fighting with them for the choicer, tastier prey of the peace-loving, wealthy Solarian League. Beowulf - half dupe, half victim - is merely the first course for these ravening conquistadors!

Agreed!! But I don't think either Thomas or Benjamin give a flying fig about the Mandarin's fictional unifarce. Especially if there's enough SL newsies in system listening to Theisman tell the SLN to bugger off for duration of their state visit. OR... the election happens first and the Beowulfan public and the SL public never knew there was more than a ship or two nearby to begin with.

They need to give that flying fig. They're politicians, with states fighting a war that they cannot win on a purely military basis. The League is too large. It needs to be broken up into pieces that aren't going to take seriously either a dream of a League reborn or crushing the neobarbs in revenge. Those pieces aren't going to have those views if the Mandarins can spin Beowulf as constrained by someone else's warships hanging over their heads.

Sure, the truth may get through Solly media and Solly brains, but given the current state of both of them, it needs all the help it can get. Anyone's ships looming around, for whatever pretext, where they may plausibly have Beowulf under the guns, will be grist for that mill.

Maybe - and this is perhaps stretching it - fleets around the hyperlimit may be able to help Beowulf after Beowulf tells the SLN that they are absolutely not welcome here and now and Beowulf calls out for that help. In that case, the GA fleets may be far enough out not to present a credible menace to Beowulf and to be able to eat the SLN force still, if the communications are FTL and carried out promptly. But it won't much matter which GA component does the neighborhood watch duty in that case, and it's still pushing it in terms of how it will play out in League systems.