Question about Beowulf tactics

Brigade XO wrote:Another question we havn't got the answer to yet is at what point does BSDF open fire on any force the SLN sends to "observe" or interfear with the election?

I suspect that this may involve something similar to what Honor does at 2nd Manticore by broadcasting (using that nasty Manticorian FTL equipment they already are known to have) to the incomming force that crossing the hyper-limit will be considered an Act of War and they will be fired upon. If the SLN does cross the hyper-limit and the BSDF does engage, at that point they probably should continue until the attacking force is destroyed or surrendered.

If the force turns away or hyper's out, Beowulf should probably NOT open fire- this time.

Once Beowulf opens fire, the SLN is going to have to "deal" with this "emergency" and treat Beowulf as an overt enemy, "possibly" in league with Manticore and that will be used to justify anything they can think up to both punish and seize the Beowulf system.

Once things are settled on the vote and presuming Beowulf has left the league, I have a possible use for the debris and any captured SLN warships. Park them out not far inside the hyper-limit of the system as beacons, broadcasting anti-Mandarin slogans and stuff like: The SLN is a bully and useless bunch of corrupt bunch of Cannon Fodder for the SL buracracy.

I'm not sure Beowulf could use the term "act of war" until after the vote. An act against the wishes of the star system, and in violation of the Solarian constitution, and to be met with as much force as necessary, yes, but not an act of war, as long as Beowulf is part of the League.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:If I'm a Sollie admiral that can tie my own shoes at that point, and you give me one chance to hyper out of the box, I'll take it. Then the Beowulfans let all the in system newsies publish their "LMAO faked out the mighty SLN with zero (visible) help from the Manties" reports that not only is the Emporer not wearing any clothes, but the emporer's advisers are witless fools.

If they keep coming the towed/dropped off pods begin laying waste the SLN ships in whatever battle sequence makes sense, and inviting their friends in the RMN to come in and finish the job, if they're even needed at all.

StealthSeeker wrote:My take on things is that at this point the RMN is at war with the SLN and want/need to take every advantage to reduce the offensive or defensive capabilities of the SLN. So if the SLN does attack Beowulf, the last thing the RMN wants is for all those ships to get away so they can be used again. I think the same could be said of Beowulf as if the SLN does attack in an effort to prevent the vote, I can't see any way that Beowulf would not then consider themselves at war with the SLN. Therefore, strategically, just as at Manticore, weather I'm the RMN or Beowulf, I don't want to allow the attacking ships a chance to run away. At this point just embarrassing the SLN is not good enough.

SharkHunter wrote:I agree with you, though I suggested that the "visible deterrent" Honor wanted might allow a withdrawal, but then again I didn't consider whether or not the "visible" part might apply to SLN ships "scouting" Beowulf, just an all out invasion fleet. The question is whether the SLN would go for a close-in arrival to the hyper limit, or come in further out to scout which might give them the opportunity to hyper out anyway. What I'd assume is that the GA/BSDF strategy resembles what Honor set up at Sidemore, the Havenites at Solon, Honor at Lovat, and Filareta's folly: assuming that crossing the system's hyper limit is the point at which the gloves come all the way off. Only RFC knows in the mean time.

If you are looking for a visible deterrent, I suggest handing the Sollie government a copy of the Filareta fiasco, and noting that Beowulf is covered by the same defense system - even if it isn't. Slip someone in Sollie Naval Intelligence a leak confirming it. The mere suggestion that you might be poking your neck head into that kind of hornets next has got to give even the mandarins pause, since another fiasco of that nature could be the end for them. Even if they are willing to consider it, Kingsford appears to actually be able to pour piss out of a boot, albeit with instructions printed on the heel, and might decide that he has a better use for his wallers than serving as missile sinks for the GA. The pause should be more than enough time to actually get Mycroft up and running.

The events at Beowulf, if I were writing the story, would have to be another Filareta type fiasco for the SLN with the SLN loosing (this time hopefully surrendering) a lot of ships. But HOW?? The SLN should indeed be very wary of another Filareta type trap but the hypothesized SLN attack presented in the book is of a "run & gun" action where they exit hyper close to the Beowulf hyper limit and make a mad dash for the planet. Would the SLN's believe be that Beowulf just couldn't be ready for the Filareta type defense? It seems insane, but then again, it is the Mandarin's mindset we are talking about.

So,... the RMN can't have ships in the Beowulf system. And the Mycroft system may not be fully up and running before the attack. But I still want the SLN to surrender their ships. Maybe the RMN can give the BSDF a bunch of those decoys that can emulate the wedge signature of an SD. Then when the SLN comes across Beowulf's hyper limit the BSDF can threaten/bluff with the parts of Mycrof that is up and running, along with those decoys (being the visible threat), and with a bunch of RMN ships jumping in behind them, maybe the SLN can be convinced that they are indeed in another Filareta situation and just surrender. Mycroft doesn't have to be fully up if they can convince the SLN into surrendering before the Mycroft missiles have to be used.

snipped to save mouse scroll buttons.

fallsfromtrees wrote:If you are looking for a visible deterrent, I suggest handing the Sollie government a copy of the Filareta fiasco, and noting that Beowulf is covered by the same defense system - even if it isn't. Slip someone in Sollie Naval Intelligence a leak confirming it. The mere suggestion that you might be poking your neck head into that kind of hornets next has got to give even the mandarins pause, since another fiasco of that nature could be the end for them. Even if they are willing to consider it, Kingsford appears to actually be able to pour piss out of a boot, albeit with instructions printed on the heel, and might decide that he has a better use for his wallers than serving as missile sinks for the GA. The pause should be more than enough time to actually get Mycroft up and running.

StealthSeeker wrote:
The events at Beowulf, if I were writing the story, would have to be another Filareta type fiasco for the SLN with the SLN loosing (this time hopefully surrendering) a lot of ships. But HOW?? The SLN should indeed be very wary of another Filareta type trap but the hypothesized SLN attack presented in the book is of a "run & gun" action where they exit hyper close to the Beowulf hyper limit and make a mad dash for the planet. Would the SLN's believe be that Beowulf just couldn't be ready for the Filareta type defense? It seems insane, but then again, it is the Mandarin's mindset we are talking about.

So,... the RMN can't have ships in the Beowulf system. And the Mycroft system may not be fully up and running before the attack. But I still want the SLN to surrender their ships. Maybe the RMN can give the BSDF a bunch of those decoys that can emulate the wedge signature of an SD. Then when the SLN comes across Beowulf's hyper limit the BSDF can threaten/bluff with the parts of Mycrof that is up and running, along with those decoys (being the visible threat), and with a bunch of RMN ships jumping in behind them, maybe the SLN can be convinced that they are indeed in another Filareta situation and just surrender. Mycroft doesn't have to be fully up if they can convince the SLN into surrendering before the Mycroft missiles have to be used.

That is the reason for having the ONI people discover that Mycroft is up and running, and that any attempt on the Beowuld system is guaranteed to lead to another disaster. This should give the Mandarins sufficient pause to allow Mycroft to become available. Honor's concern was the lack of a visible deterrent - this provides one, particularly if you can convince the ONI types that Beowulf wants you to attack in order to destroy the entire fleet - it is in fact one gigantic trap, designed to cripple the remaining SLN.

Perhaps what is really needed is for one of the mid-level members of the BSDF to defect to the Sollies with the details of the "plan", saying that he/she just couldn't live with themselves if the traitors running Beowulf killed so man of the dedicated personnel of the SLN. You should be able to order 50 feet of the speech from stock and cut to fit.

My own belief is that Solly ONI or no Solly ONI, the decision to attack Beowulf has been made at the end of ART. They might be a bit more cautious, but something is going to happen. Wonder if they'll send out Tsang to lead it...I understand that for some reason Filereta is no longer available for the job.

Don

n7axw wrote:My own belief is that Solly ONI or no Solly ONI, the decision to attack Beowulf has been made at the end of ART. They might be a bit more cautious, but something is going to happen. Wonder if they'll send out Tsang to lead it...I understand that for some reason Filereta is no longer available for the job.

Don

I'm not so sure that the decision is final. Kingsford has been asking for information, which has led the cabal of junior officers to speculate that that s what is intended, but I suspect if information came in that indicated it was going to be another Filareta fiasco, they would stop to rethink the operation.

If it happens it will be a disaster for the SLN. The question is whether it will be a disaster for Beowulf. It sure would seem kind of convenient for someone if the SLN blew up Beowulf, and also destroyed the key high-tech construction site for the GA, leaving them with a year worth of construction missing all the parts needed to actually fight. Not to mention also leaving Manticore with huge holes in their plans to rebuilt their industrial base.

Perhaps you might guess who might benefit from that kind of outcome?

fallsfromtrees wrote:snipped to save mouse scroll buttons.

fallsfromtrees wrote:If you are looking for a visible deterrent, I suggest handing the Sollie government a copy of the Filareta fiasco, and noting that Beowulf is covered by the same defense system - even if it isn't. Slip someone in Sollie Naval Intelligence a leak confirming it. The mere suggestion that you might be poking your neck head into that kind of hornets next has got to give even the mandarins pause, since another fiasco of that nature could be the end for them. Even if they are willing to consider it, Kingsford appears to actually be able to pour piss out of a boot, albeit with instructions printed on the heel, and might decide that he has a better use for his wallers than serving as missile sinks for the GA. The pause should be more than enough time to actually get Mycroft up and running.

StealthSeeker wrote:
The events at Beowulf, if I were writing the story, would have to be another Filareta type fiasco for the SLN with the SLN loosing (this time hopefully surrendering) a lot of ships. But HOW?? The SLN should indeed be very wary of another Filareta type trap but the hypothesized SLN attack presented in the book is of a "run & gun" action where they exit hyper close to the Beowulf hyper limit and make a mad dash for the planet. Would the SLN's believe be that Beowulf just couldn't be ready for the Filareta type defense? It seems insane, but then again, it is the Mandarin's mindset we are talking about.

So,... the RMN can't have ships in the Beowulf system. And the Mycroft system may not be fully up and running before the attack. But I still want the SLN to surrender their ships. Maybe the RMN can give the BSDF a bunch of those decoys that can emulate the wedge signature of an SD. Then when the SLN comes across Beowulf's hyper limit the BSDF can threaten/bluff with the parts of Mycrof that is up and running, along with those decoys (being the visible threat), and with a bunch of RMN ships jumping in behind them, maybe the SLN can be convinced that they are indeed in another Filareta situation and just surrender. Mycroft doesn't have to be fully up if they can convince the SLN into surrendering before the Mycroft missiles have to be used.

That is the reason for having the ONI people discover that Mycroft is up and running, and that any attempt on the Beowuld system is guaranteed to lead to another disaster. This should give the Mandarins sufficient pause to allow Mycroft to become available. Honor's concern was the lack of a visible deterrent - this provides one, particularly if you can convince the ONI types that Beowulf wants you to attack in order to destroy the entire fleet - it is in fact one gigantic trap, designed to cripple the remaining SLN.

Perhaps what is really needed is for one of the mid-level members of the BSDF to defect to the Sollies with the details of the "plan", saying that he/she just couldn't live with themselves if the traitors running Beowulf killed so man of the dedicated personnel of the SLN. You should be able to order 50 feet of the speech from stock and cut to fit.

While I think the idea of planting the (mis)information for the SLN ONI to think that the same fate would face any SLN forces attacking Beowulf, I see one potentially very big problem with it:

How do you get the information to the upper echelons of the SLN ONI so that they believe it? I'm not talking strictly about the mechanics of it (although that may or may not be problematical in and of itself).

Rather, how do you get the idea through the willful filtering/rejection process of the many layers of the armored (better than their wallers) mindset of Not Invented Here, Not Believed, File Any Inconvenient Information That Does Not Fit Our Idea Of How The Universe Works, etc., of the SLN ONI?

Getting an idea through their heads would require them to actually THINK about an idea, which seems to be something that the SLN ONI either has severe problems with, or is actively allergic to.*

* Is this a requirement for serving in the SLN ONI?

fallsfromtrees wrote:snipped to save mouse scroll buttons.

If you are looking for a visible deterrent, I suggest handing the Sollie government a copy of the Filareta fiasco, and noting that Beowulf is covered by the same defense system - even if it isn't. Slip someone in Sollie Naval Intelligence a leak confirming it. The mere suggestion that you might be poking your neck head into that kind of hornets next has got to give even the mandarins pause, since another fiasco of that nature could be the end for them. Even if they are willing to consider it, Kingsford appears to actually be able to pour piss out of a boot, albeit with instructions printed on the heel, and might decide that he has a better use for his wallers than serving as missile sinks for the GA. The pause should be more than enough time to actually get Mycroft up and running.

StealthSeeker wrote:
The events at Beowulf, if I were writing the story, would have to be another Filareta type fiasco for the SLN with the SLN loosing (this time hopefully surrendering) a lot of ships. But HOW?? The SLN should indeed be very wary of another Filareta type trap but the hypothesized SLN attack presented in the book is of a "run & gun" action where they exit hyper close to the Beowulf hyper limit and make a mad dash for the planet. Would the SLN's believe be that Beowulf just couldn't be ready for the Filareta type defense? It seems insane, but then again, it is the Mandarin's mindset we are talking about.

So,... the RMN can't have ships in the Beowulf system. And the Mycroft system may not be fully up and running before the attack. But I still want the SLN to surrender their ships. Maybe the RMN can give the BSDF a bunch of those decoys that can emulate the wedge signature of an SD. Then when the SLN comes across Beowulf's hyper limit the BSDF can threaten/bluff with the parts of Mycrof that is up and running, along with those decoys (being the visible threat), and with a bunch of RMN ships jumping in behind them, maybe the SLN can be convinced that they are indeed in another Filareta situation and just surrender. Mycroft doesn't have to be fully up if they can convince the SLN into surrendering before the Mycroft missiles have to be used.

fallsfromtrees wrote:That is the reason for having the ONI people discover that Mycroft is up and running, and that any attempt on the Beowuld system is guaranteed to lead to another disaster. This should give the Mandarins sufficient pause to allow Mycroft to become available. Honor's concern was the lack of a visible deterrent - this provides one, particularly if you can convince the ONI types that Beowulf wants you to attack in order to destroy the entire fleet - it is in fact one gigantic trap, designed to cripple the remaining SLN.

Perhaps what is really needed is for one of the mid-level members of the BSDF to defect to the Sollies with the details of the "plan", saying that he/she just couldn't live with themselves if the traitors running Beowulf killed so man of the dedicated personnel of the SLN. You should be able to order 50 feet of the speech from stock and cut to fit.

Vince wrote:While I think the idea of planting the (mis)information for the SLN ONI to think that the same fate would face any SLN forces attacking Beowulf, I see one potentially very big problem with it:

How do you get the information to the upper echelons of the SLN ONI so that they believe it? I'm not talking strictly about the mechanics of it (although that may or may not be problematical in and of itself).

Rather, how do you get the idea through the willful filtering/rejection process of the many layers of the armored (better than their wallers) mindset of Not Invented Here, Not Believed, File Any Inconvenient Information That Does Not Fit Our Idea Of How The Universe Works, etc., of the SLN ONI?

Getting an idea through their heads would require them to actually THINK about an idea, which seems to be something that the SLN ONI either has severe problems with, or is actively allergic to.*

* Is this a requirement for serving in the SLN ONI?

Thats why you have a defector from Beowulf to plant the seed, and after the Filareta fiasco, and considering that Ramjapet "committed suicide" in the aftermath, is going to have senior people looking for good excuses to not have the same thing happen to them (The acute embarrassment of having screwed the pooch so thoroughly), and Teague and Doud not have a certain amount of credibility, if they raise that fact, they just might get listened to. The senior members of the SLN have been hit by a big enough clue by four, that even they are starting to realize that going up against Manty quality defenses is a recipe for disaster.

Recall, if you will, that Beowulf was getting the information that they passed along to Manticore reguarding Fillerta from someone deep in the SL or at least SLN.

Given the need for planning and tasking ships to "do something" about Beowulf or interfer/"correct" any vote to leave the League, isn't likely that the same source would at least try to pass the information along? You remember, number of ships where they were placed, who's in command, what time they are showing up?

Either message gets though in time or not. If someone in SLN- ONI in brought in to deal with the leak and gets creative, they MIGHT send disinformation.Of course if they do- Beowulf positions to trap it and a decoy force (or perhaps just one ship to snoop) shows up and gets a look at what Beowulf wants them to see (even if they haven't shifted forces) the result may be the snooper tries to call off the strike when they see a gazillion missile pods in system and a LOT of gravatronic signals indicating that this might be a really really really unhealthy place for a hundred or so SLN SD.

It occurs to me that the whole thing is already over, and either the attack didn't happen or it fizzled. In Thunder, back in July people were worried about a couple of months of vulnerability before the plebiscite, after which Manties could be overtly stationed at Beowulf. But Cauldron ends in October or November! The last chapter may be earlier than that, but still. It would have been poor story telling to drop an infodump into the conversation between Honor and Zilwicki, but at the least she's still (or back) in Manticore, and he doesn't apologize for interrupting her efforts to deal with the fallout from the Battle of Beowulf.