Question about Beowulf tactics

StealthSeeker wrote:My take on things is that at this point the RMN is at war with the SLN and want/need to take every advantage to reduce the offensive or defensive capabilities of the SLN. So if the SLN does attack Beowulf, the last thing the RMN wants is for all those ships to get away so they can be used again. I think the same could be said of Beowulf as if the SLN does attack in an effort to prevent the vote, I can't see any way that Beowulf would not then consider themselves at war with the SLN. Therefore, strategically, just as at Manticore, weather I'm the RMN or Beowulf, I don't want to allow the attacking ships a chance to run away. At this point just embarrassing the SLN is not good enough.

The thing is, the RMN needs to always consider what kind of peace it wants afterwards. If its strategy, or operations, or tactics, induce the majority of the Solarian League to pull together for increased warfighting efficiency and to tough it out for revenge over the long term, then the RMN has lost the war, or the next war, even if it won one battle, or a dozen battles, or a hundred battles. There is a line it needs to be careful not to cross, if it is to achieve its objective of splintering the Solarian League into a bunch of successor states none of which are large enough to threaten, nor inclined to gang up on, Manticore.

tonyz wrote:There is a line it needs to be careful not to cross, if it is to achieve its objective of splintering the Solarian League into a bunch of successor states none of which are large enough to threaten, nor inclined to gang up on, Manticore.

Note that if you split the SL into 100 equal sized pieces, every piece is capable of generating a military that can severely threaten Manticore.

tonyz wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:My take on things is that at this point the RMN is at war with the SLN and want/need to take every advantage to reduce the offensive or defensive capabilities of the SLN. So if the SLN does attack Beowulf, the last thing the RMN wants is for all those ships to get away so they can be used again. I think the same could be said of Beowulf as if the SLN does attack in an effort to prevent the vote, I can't see any way that Beowulf would not then consider themselves at war with the SLN. Therefore, strategically, just as at Manticore, weather I'm the RMN or Beowulf, I don't want to allow the attacking ships a chance to run away. At this point just embarrassing the SLN is not good enough.

The thing is, the RMN needs to always consider what kind of peace it wants afterwards. If its strategy, or operations, or tactics, induce the majority of the Solarian League to pull together for increased warfighting efficiency and to tough it out for revenge over the long term, then the RMN has lost the war, or the next war, even if it won one battle, or a dozen battles, or a hundred battles. There is a line it needs to be careful not to cross, if it is to achieve its objective of splintering the Solarian League into a bunch of successor states none of which are large enough to threaten, nor inclined to gang up on, Manticore.

That is why they can't attack the people/planets of the members of the SL. They need to attack the tools that the Mandarins use as a projection of their corruption and the SLN is part of that. In and SL where Beowulf is only one of several planets that are thinking about seceding, what are the other planets going to think when the Mandarins send the SLN to suppress one of the original core worlds? What would those other angry worlds believe Beowulf is entitled to do as a reaction to the attack?

But yes, I absolutely agree that the GA can't go around laying waste to whole planets as the SL does in the verge or great enemies will be created. Pivotal focal points must be targeted. Manticore is after the wormhole termini and I think that after the Beowulf attack the mothball fleet should become a target. They can destroy an icon that is a projection of the Mandarin's power and limit the number of people that get killed.

kzt wrote:

tonyz wrote:There is a line it needs to be careful not to cross, if it is to achieve its objective of splintering the Solarian League into a bunch of successor states none of which are large enough to threaten, nor inclined to gang up on, Manticore.

Note that if you split the SL into 100 equal sized pieces, every piece is capable of generating a military that can severely threaten Manticore.

Given that there are about 1800 worlds currently in the SL, that is a grouping of about 18 worlds each - and Manticore has got 4 heavily industrialized worlds, and about 30 more in the Empire that are going to be come industrialized, and an alliance with a 150 world Republic - don't think tht those 18 world pocket empires are going to be much of a threat for a very long time, and only if they merge into something much larger.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given that there are about 1800 worlds currently in the SL, that is a grouping of about 18 worlds each - and Manticore has got 4 heavily industrialized worlds, and about 30 more in the Empire that are going to be come industrialized, and an alliance with a 150 world Republic - don't think tht those 18 world pocket empires are going to be much of a threat for a very long time, and only if they merge into something much larger.

The ENTIRE RMN is produced with the industry and population of exactly one system, without going to an actual total war footing. Compare the U.S. in WW2 to Manticore fighting the peeps. There was no Homefront mobilization. Manticore also has no industry. It will be along time before they really recover. A couple of core worlds can easily produce a military of the scale of the RMN if they were to decide to do so and spend the money to do so.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given that there are about 1800 worlds currently in the SL, that is a grouping of about 18 worlds each - and Manticore has got 4 heavily industrialized worlds, and about 30 more in the Empire that are going to be come industrialized, and an alliance with a 150 world Republic - don't think tht those 18 world pocket empires are going to be much of a threat for a very long time, and only if they merge into something much larger.

The ENTIRE RMN is produced with the industry and population of exactly one system, without going to an actual total war footing. Compare the U.S. in WW2 to Manticore fighting the peeps. There was no Homefront mobilization. Manticore also has no industry. It will be along time before they really recover. A couple of core worlds can easily produce a military of the scale of the RMN if they were to decide to do so and spend the money to do so.

Do you really believe that there is going to be no industrialization of Silesia or the Talbott Quadrant? By the time those pocket empires left over from the SL can get their act together, Manticore will have built back, so my argument stands.

StealthSeeker wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:If I'm a Sollie admiral that can tie my own shoes at that point, and you give me one chance to hyper out of the box, I'll take it. Then the Beowulfans let all the in system newsies publish their "LMAO faked out the mighty SLN with zero (visible) help from the Manties" reports that not only is the Emporer not wearing any clothes, but the emporer's advisers are witless fools.

If they keep coming the towed/dropped off pods begin laying waste the SLN ships in whatever battle sequence makes sense, and inviting their friends in the RMN to come in and finish the job, if they're even needed at all.

My take on things is that at this point the RMN is at war with the SLN and want/need to take every advantage to reduce the offensive or defensive capabilities of the SLN. So if the SLN does attack Beowulf, the last thing the RMN wants is for all those ships to get away so they can be used again. I think the same could be said of Beowulf as if the SLN does attack in an effort to prevent the vote, I can't see any way that Beowulf would not then consider themselves at war with the SLN. Therefore, strategically, just as at Manticore, weather I'm the RMN or Beowulf, I don't want to allow the attacking ships a chance to run away. At this point just embarrassing the SLN is not good enough.

I agree with you, though I suggested that the "visible deterrent" Honor wanted might allow a withdrawal, but then again I didn't consider whether or not the "visible" part might apply to SLN ships "scouting" Beowulf, just an all out invasion fleet. The question is whether the SLN would go for a close-in arrival to the hyper limit, or come in further out to scout which might give them the opportunity to hyper out anyway. What I'd assume is that the GA/BSDF strategy resembles what Honor set up at Sidemore, the Havenites at Solon, Honor at Lovat, and Filareta's folly: assuming that crossing the system's hyper limit is the point at which the gloves come all the way off. Only RFC knows in the mean time.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given that there are about 1800 worlds currently in the SL, that is a grouping of about 18 worlds each - and Manticore has got 4 heavily industrialized worlds, and about 30 more in the Empire that are going to be come industrialized, and an alliance with a 150 world Republic - don't think tht those 18 world pocket empires are going to be much of a threat for a very long time, and only if they merge into something much larger.

The ENTIRE RMN is produced with the industry and population of exactly one system, without going to an actual total war footing. Compare the U.S. in WW2 to Manticore fighting the peeps. There was no Homefront mobilization. Manticore also has no industry. It will be along time before they really recover. A couple of core worlds can easily produce a military of the scale of the RMN if they were to decide to do so and spend the money to do so.

Bolding and italics mine.

And that's the nub of it, isn't it, kzt?

That the GA can take out the SLN (BF and FF), all their mothballed ships and building slips, and probably do so within 1-2 T-years is a given (at least by me).

But that doesn't come close to an agreement that will preserve the Core/Shell systems peace, integrity, and financial well-being to an extent that the cost of building a 'revenge' fleet is not considered, because there is no cause for revenge.

That particular bit of cat-herding is going to take some doing. Given that human nature in the Honorverse hasn't changed much in two millenia, I would call it impossible, but we'll see what the MWW comes up with.

SharkHunter wrote:If I'm a Sollie admiral that can tie my own shoes at that point, and you give me one chance to hyper out of the box, I'll take it. Then the Beowulfans let all the in system newsies publish their "LMAO faked out the mighty SLN with zero (visible) help from the Manties" reports that not only is the Emporer not wearing any clothes, but the emporer's advisers are witless fools.

If they keep coming the towed/dropped off pods begin laying waste the SLN ships in whatever battle sequence makes sense, and inviting their friends in the RMN to come in and finish the job, if they're even needed at all.

StealthSeeker wrote:My take on things is that at this point the RMN is at war with the SLN and want/need to take every advantage to reduce the offensive or defensive capabilities of the SLN. So if the SLN does attack Beowulf, the last thing the RMN wants is for all those ships to get away so they can be used again. I think the same could be said of Beowulf as if the SLN does attack in an effort to prevent the vote, I can't see any way that Beowulf would not then consider themselves at war with the SLN. Therefore, strategically, just as at Manticore, weather I'm the RMN or Beowulf, I don't want to allow the attacking ships a chance to run away. At this point just embarrassing the SLN is not good enough.

SharkHunter wrote:I agree with you, though I suggested that the "visible deterrent" Honor wanted might allow a withdrawal, but then again I didn't consider whether or not the "visible" part might apply to SLN ships "scouting" Beowulf, just an all out invasion fleet. The question is whether the SLN would go for a close-in arrival to the hyper limit, or come in further out to scout which might give them the opportunity to hyper out anyway. What I'd assume is that the GA/BSDF strategy resembles what Honor set up at Sidemore, the Havenites at Solon, Honor at Lovat, and Filareta's folly: assuming that crossing the system's hyper limit is the point at which the gloves come all the way off. Only RFC knows in the mean time.

If you are looking for a visible deterrent, I suggest handing the Sollie government a copy of the Filareta fiasco, and noting that Beowulf is covered by the same defense system - even if it isn't. Slip someone in Sollie Naval Intelligence a leak confirming it. The mere suggestion that you might be poking your neck head into that kind of hornets next has got to give even the mandarins pause, since another fiasco of that nature could be the end for them. Even if they are willing to consider it, Kingsford appears to actually be able to pour piss out of a boot, albeit with instructions printed on the heel, and might decide that he has a better use for his wallers than serving as missile sinks for the GA. The pause should be more than enough time to actually get Mycroft up and running.

Another question we havn't got the answer to yet is at what point does BSDF open fire on any force the SLN sends to "observe" or interfear with the election?

I suspect that this may involve something similar to what Honor does at 2nd Manticore by broadcasting (using that nasty Manticorian FTL equipment they already are known to have) to the incomming force that crossing the hyper-limit will be considered an Act of War and they will be fired upon. If the SLN does cross the hyper-limit and the BSDF does engage, at that point they probably should continue until the attacking force is destroyed or surrendered.

If the force turns away or hyper's out, Beowulf should probably NOT open fire- this time.

Once Beowulf opens fire, the SLN is going to have to "deal" with this "emergency" and treat Beowulf as an overt enemy, "possibly" in league with Manticore and that will be used to justify anything they can think up to both punish and seize the Beowulf system.

Once things are settled on the vote and presuming Beowulf has left the league, I have a possible use for the debris and any captured SLN warships. Park them out not far inside the hyper-limit of the system as beacons, broadcasting anti-Mandarin slogans and stuff like: The SLN is a bully and useless bunch of corrupt bunch of Cannon Fodder for the SL buracracy.