Solly Fleet Advancements

Bill Woods wrote:For FTL communications, everybody knows how to send signals by dialing a wedge up or down. But the bandwidth is low -- at the smoke-signal level. Presumably they could improve that a fair amount with a little work.

For example, you could use an array of shuttle drives.

First, I don't really buy the arguments that the SL is dead because the SL is really big. However, if the SL is dead then what is coming after the SL is going to be truly scary. After the galaxy wide depression, a group of systems unite for self defense reasons. So remember, how does the GA know who is part of MAlign and what's part of union designed to protect themselves and what is part of the MAlign. The GA has not identified one single other than Mesa that is part of MAlign. Now, maybe they can discover who built those missles for Monica and SL. Or, they can discover some information on Mesa or through other sources who is part MAlign.

All it takes is a combination of FF, BF, and some local SDF working towards a common goal with a charismatic political and at least competent or charismatic military leader to be threat!

smr wrote:First, I don't really buy the arguments that the SL is dead because the SL is really big.

Do you mean, "the SL is big, therefore it is dead," or "The SL is too big to die?"

smr wrote:However, if the SL is dead then what is coming after the SL is going to be truly scary. After the galaxy wide depression, a group of systems unite for self defense reasons.

That is the expected outcome and the only way the SEM and GA can survive.

A large portion is going to turn to the GA for protection/membership. Near Manticoran/GA wormholes there's going to be a lot of diplomacy going on to encourage defections from the SL to the GA -- a la Beowulf. Further afield, the GA will be essentially indifferent to political developments that don't threaten the GA; they'll come down hard on those who do threaten the GA.

smr wrote:So remember, how does the GA know who is part of MAlign and what's part of union designed to protect themselves and what is part of the MAlign. The GA has not identified one single other than Mesa that is part of MAlign.

I think we're going to have to rely on RFC and Deux ex Machina for the missed database on Mesa or whatever clue the GA needs to further the story.

smr wrote:Now, maybe they can discover who built those missles for Monica and SL. Or, they can discover some information on Mesa or through other sources who is part MAlign.

They know who provided the missiles to Monica -- Technodyne.

The cataphract and other multi-stage missiles provided to MAlign catspaws in Torch and the SLN came from "technodyne" but originated in Mesa; Perhaps Mesan shipping records, post-Green Pines, will provide information.

smr wrote:All it takes is a combination of FF, BF, and some local SDF working towards a common goal with a charismatic political and at least competent or charismatic military leader to be threat!

FF, BF = ???

We know the Renaissance Factor is primed to form a mutual protection Cabal, but I'd be surprised if they present any immediate threat to the GA.

A charismatic leader, like Andrew Warneke, will probably prompt a visit from a GA task force if he presents any real threat. The RMN has already demonstrated the ability to be more ruthless than tyrants in support of "freedom fighters."

Hi guys,

First we're talking 2 different problems; trying to revive the dead horse of saving the SLN some how by some still hidden trick which RFC has posted repeatedly ain't going to happen; and controlling the ex-SL systems later, two quite different problems, which in describing likely GA tactics apparently confused some of you..

Regarding the size of the SL, we had back in CoS (early 1919) WEB telling Helen the SL then had 1784 systems, not counting the protectorates, though we don't know the rate new members are accepted, since its been 3 years ~1800 might be the current depending on whether you think the SL is that open to ex-verge systems, plundered by the OFS and transtellars, to now get onto the SL gravy train etc.

How many such members are tame votes for their old transtellar or the OFS, or Mesa etc?

RFC has stated several times about 2/3 of all the members have nothing but LAC's to defend themselves, ie totally dependent upon the SL for deterring their neighbors and general protection of their trade etc, these being concentrated in the 'old league' core.

Basically aside from the SLN bases in the 'old league', assumed to be the most technically advanced, are practically helpless.

Beowulf may be quite the rarity or anomaly, having SD's in the 'old league, which might explain some hostility to it by its more helpless neighbors.

The major question regarding space infrastructure here is, of the third that have at least some hyper warships, how many have their own shipyards?

I doubt having fewer than a dozen would be worth such dedicated facilities, NTM given how few systems have their own merchant ships, the number of civilian yards will be relatively few too.

I have posted many times my simple suggested breakdown of the ~600 SDF's with hyper warships, being more than willing to consider anyone else's yet I've never had a detailed alternative (IIRC) which surprises me greatly, such as why not continue the 2-1 ratio etc?

Here it is again:

300 with 5-6 hyper warships,
150 with 10-12 " "
75 with 25-50 " "
37 with 50-100 " "
19 with 100-200 " "
10 with 200-400 " "
9 with 400-800 " "

In response, RFC has stated no SDF has more than ~800 hyper warships, which explains the modified bottom limit, but its a fairly simple progression and I'm surprised better ones haven't come up in all these threads.

You can easily suggest your own SDF sizes of larger groupings around 30, 60 or 90; or 40 and 80 etc.

Where BC's and SD's occur in the larger SDF's is a question I've tried to answer before; suggesting somewhere between 50-100 for BC's, and 100-200 for SD's, though please note the RMN and PRHN averaged about 20% SD/DN before the first war back in 1904, so the bigger SDF's might be gearing up to 20% SD's.

OTOH, we still don't know the size of the BSN besides its 36 SD's, so where it currently fits is another mystery.

Still if SDF's with 25 or more have their own shipyards, that's only ~150 systems the GA has to attack, neutralize or watch immediately, assuming the GA sees all of them as potential enemies; so adding them to the primary SLN target list probably won't move many up to first or even second priority targets.

Its still a rather small number for the GA which has 3-4000 hyper warships (2 years of war production since early 1920 chart), including around 1200 SDP's (over 800 RHN and ~400 MA, [including ~200 pre-BOMA, after the IAN became less active in the MA]), when most don't warrant the attention of even a pair of SDP's beyond the initial strike if that (old SD's with tractored pods ought to be enough for almost all), so the remaining pickets can easily be 'legacy' ships; especially old RHN escorts with 10-12 MDM pods tractored, while RHN LAC's might supplement them, to include modified freighters as the carrier and system base (perhaps somewhere in the asteroid belt etc) yet more than adequate for this very limited mission.

While only 5 warships with MDM's could cover most H-L's at the H-L boundary against speedy dispatch boats, assuming the GA wanted to stay outside it for some reason and as these warships are designed to spend month's on station, 10 might be the initial force size for most if they were to attempt the H-L boundary as their patrol station.

Give the range of SDM system defense pods, maintaining patrols only a LM or 2 beyond the planet would reduce that to just one station, with redundancy making it two so deep with 1-2 or more to alternate as you please.

Even given 6 hyper warships per system and 150 systems, that's only 900, assuming they're all going to be enemies for around 25% of the GA at this time.

When the IAN rejoins it will easily top 5000 in a year or two, given new construction and other new allies.

Remember too that the Maya sector's heavy industrialization is key to the GA's eventual victory, so its 27 systems are apparently more important than nearly all of the SL's, though it may just be their additional industrial strength added to the GA, compared to the RF and MAlg.

Queen Elisabeth III and President Pritchart recognised Mesa wasn't the true MAlg HQ, NTM that Mesa would have a new false front in their conversation at the end of MoH, so I don't expect them to be surprised by the RF.

L

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:A) How many SL member systems are there?
...
F) How many hyper capable ships does the GA have?

How do these number compare?
F-E=?

lyonheart wrote:Nor will the local system have much ability to do any serious R&D since the GA pickets will be monitoring the systems afterward, so your critical R&D testing will have evaporated as well.

Where is the GA going to find enough ships to picket just the core worlds without worrying about the Shell worlds, OFS protectorates, and allied verge worlds like Monica?

Neither Manticore nor Haven ever had enough ships to picket the others entire sphere of influence, and the Solarian League is MUCH larger than either the SEM or Republic of Haven.

kzt wrote:A) How many SL member systems are there?
...
F) How many hyper capable ships does the GA have?

How do these number compare?
F-E=?

Is there any definitive quantification of the size of the Solarian League? I don't recall any hard numbers.

There is, however, ample evidence that the Solarian League is enormous.

lyonheart wrote:Regarding the size of the SL, we had back in CoS (early 1919) WEB telling Helen the SL then had 1784 systems, not counting the protectorates, ...

RFC has stated several times about 2/3 of all the members have nothing but LAC's to defend themselves, ...

That's a decent starting point. Thx.

lyonheart wrote:The major question regarding space infrastructure here is, of the third that have at least some hyper warships, how many have their own shipyards?

I doubt having fewer than a dozen would be worth such dedicated facilities, NTM given how few systems have their own merchant ships, the number of civilian yards will be relatively few too.

The question that comes to mind is, "Which of those systems build ships for the SLN and which just build warships for themselves or other SDFs?"

Those that build SLN ships are both high priority targets and should be strongly defended by SLN ships as well as any SDF. (I can't see SLN command trusting SDFs with the defense of critical resources.)

lyonheart wrote:Still if SDF's with 25 or more have their own shipyards, that's only ~150 systems the GA has to attack, neutralize or watch immediately, assuming the GA sees all of them as potential enemies; so adding them to the primary SLN target list probably won't move many up to first or even second priority targets.

I think that negotiating a non-aggression pact with SDFs that have sent observers and recognize the probable outcome of belligerence would be trivial. Those who won't consider a non-aggression pact with the GA should be watched carefully because they are either unpredictable idiots or think they have something to offset the GA tech advantage.

lyonheart wrote:Its still a rather small number for the GA which has 3-4000 hyper warships (2 years of war production since early 1920 chart), including around 1200 SDP's (over 800 RHN and ~400 MA, [including ~200 pre-BOMA, after the IAN became less active in the MA]), ...

I think your still ignoring defensive commitments and commerce protection requirements. Tenth fleet is operating aggressively because they don't have enough ships or missiles to operate on the defensive. Adm Sarnow is siphoning off ships to pacify Silesia and Case Lacoon is tying up the very ship types needed for picket duties.

Raw numbers of hyper-capable ships doesn't offset the known shortages of ships reported by/complained about in the books.

lyonheart wrote:Queen Elisabeth III and President Pritchart recognised Mesa wasn't the true MAlg HQ, NTM that Mesa would have a new false front in their conversation at the end of MoH, so I don't expect them to be surprised by the RF.

I think the RF is going to be lost in the noise of the SL disintegrating. Their self-defense cabal is preplanned, but it's is NOT going to be the only grouping to emerge.

smr wrote:First, I don't really buy the arguments that the SL is dead because the SL is really big. However, if the SL is dead then what is coming after the SL is going to be truly scary. After the galaxy wide depression, a group of systems unite for self defense reasons. So remember, how does the GA know who is part of MAlign and what's part of union designed to protect themselves and what is part of the MAlign. The GA has not identified one single other than Mesa that is part of MAlign. Now, maybe they can discover who built those missles for Monica and SL. Or, they can discover some information on Mesa or through other sources who is part MAlign.

All it takes is a combination of FF, BF, and some local SDF working towards a common goal with a charismatic political and at least competent or charismatic military leader to be threat!

I agree with this. For its own safety the GA has to break up the League. But it's not going to make the galaxy a safer place as a whole. A certain percentage of these systems are going to turn predatory, making it necessary for everyone to spend more on defense.

Another thought unrelated. I am unsure why everyone seems so enamored with Catapharact missle. IIRC, the thing only has a 15 million klick range when even non Apollo MDMs are closer to 60. Doesn't seem like anything to get overly excited about.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:Other than designing and building SLN SD(P)s nothing you've suggested addresses the SLN's defensive problems. They need some cheap, fast way to augment their defensive fire and ECM. Perhaps dedicating 50-75% of attacking ships as counter-missile batteries and turn ALL of their armament to missile defense? An entire broadside of CM canister from a SD should come close to matching GA defensive capabilities -- even if they have to rotate command links through ten or twelve CM/link.

The Cataphract's main utility is that it can be fired from existing tubes or manageable pods. Massively up-sizing that missile would be counter-productive in the short-term -- and the SL doesn't have much of a long-term in its future.

As far as new SLN construction goes, the only way they could get anything built from scratch done in around a year is to build small.

This is by no means the best way of going about things...

I suggested before that the SLN could build a cruiser class packed with upsized missile launchers. Another cruiser class packed with fire control. A third packed with CMs and PDs. I'm not saying those ships would focus exclusively on those capabilities, but the bulk of their allocable tonnage(after hullframe, impellers, etc.) would be devoted to these.

It's not ideal, because it wouldn't take long for the GA to identify each of those classes(barring anti-RD measures being developed) and then target specifically. Some balance of heavy missile launchers, point defense and fire control would be needed(I'd delete the energy weapons, since a SLN DD cannot out-accelerate a GA SD) to avoid this vulnerability.

Also, we won't be able to squeeze more than a dozen oversized missile launchers into the broadside of a heavy cruiser. This essentially turns those CAs into multiple-use manned powered pods for the SLN.

Even then, they still need hundreds of those to take on a single SD(P), never mind the rest of its battle squadron plus screen. Many will be lost in the effort.

Doomed! They're doomed!

munroburton wrote:Also, we won't be able to squeeze more than a dozen oversized missile launchers into the broadside of a heavy cruiser. This essentially turns those CAs into multiple-use manned powered pods for the SLN.

Then why not build pods and Technodyne's SDM instead. Something like the RMN's internal tractor would be necessary, and rotating control links would have to be used. I don't see any other way for the SLN to gain any offensive traction -- and that still doesn't address the execrable missile defense problem.

Weird Harold wrote:A quick and dirty solution would be to expand the multistage concept to three or four stage missiles fired from pods with command-multiplier processors (a la Apollo). Take Technodyne's System Defense DDM pod and mount a Cataphract or Cataphract sprint-stage on it and replace one missile with a command multiplier/tactical AI. Miniturized FTL command and control is probably too far in the SL's future, but a three or four-stage system defense pod with command multiplier would go a long way towards protecting SL systems. A lower endurance version carted around by "arsenal ships" in company with SD squadrons would provide needed offensive punch.

The Technodyne missiles that were fired from pods that were used at the Battle of Monica against Terekhov's scratch squadron were only extended range single drive missiles.

The only navies in the Honorverse that have true multiple or dual drive missiles (I don't consider the Mesan Alignment designed Cataphract a true DDM, as it is both over-sized [the result of combining a SDM and a CM] and with only half rate warhead [the result of having only half the lasing rods and a much less powerful warhead in order to fit it into the CM body]) are the RMN, GSN, RHN, and IAN (and even the IAN's own initial version [a DDM] fell short of what the RHN came up with [a MDM].

Vince wrote:The only navies in the Honorverse that have true multiple or dual drive missiles (I don't consider the Mesan Alignment designed Cataphract a true DDM, as it is both over-sized [the result of combining a SDM and a CM] and with only half rate warhead [the result of having only half the lasing rods and a much less powerful warhead in order to fit it into the CM body]) are the RMN, GSN, RHN, and IAN (and even the IAN's own initial version [a DDM] fell short of what the RHN came up with [a MDM].

Erm... the pod-only Cataphract-C fires the SLN's all-up capital missile warhead. Cataphract-Bs are can be fired from SLN capital ship tubes and have a cruiser-weight warhead. Cataphract-As can be fired from BC (or, apparently, Mars-class CA) tubes and have a destroyer-weight warhead. But the point is that the biggest Cataphracts do have all-up capital warheads.