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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:04 am

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I meant to ask this question in this thread.

Map for reference.

What makes a fleet base?

Are the same goods and items stored at a base in space as one on land, less warships? How much infrastructure is built in space to support a base? Is it usually located around a moon or planet? Or it depends? I know Blackbird was based on a moon.

What are the advantages/disadvantages? What support is contained at the base? Fuel? Does a base use repair ships or slips? What makes a location appropriate for a fleet base? Must it be inhabited? How much territory is claimed around a fleet base? Territorial limits are given regarding a wormhole, what about bases?

kzt wrote:Gregor is an IAN naval base. The RMN can reasonably expect that the IAN can gain a very good understanding of the capabilities of every vessel that passes that terminus. And if they don't understand it they can start to research this. So if you don't want the IAN to see your semi-secret vessels you don't send them through Gregor.

Kzt's post allows me an opportunity to fill in some holes in my understanding in all things Honorverse.

Why would the RMN warships need to use the Gregor terminus? Why would the Andermani allow another Navy's warships to use their terminus? Especially if they are going to be antsy about them operating in their territory.

I didn't quite understand the beef between Jessica Epps and Helbarde. Jessica Epps was in Andermani Space challenging a ship for broadcasting a fake IAN transponder. Why was that any of Epps business? How did Jessica Epps arrive in IAN space and what was she doing there?

I understand the need of a navy to escort its freighters, but I would expect freighters to be allowed passage thru terminii. Not warships. I need to reread that book. I know Honor was passing thru Andy space as well, and hoped she'd be excused. Why was Honor needing passage? What business does she have in Andy space?

I feel the need, the need for a speedy reread.

Evenso, it seems nearby enemy bases means the respective navies are going to pass each other in the night. So, when at peace and in a place like Silesia that's up for grabs, why does any navy get it's undies all in a twist?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:20 am

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cthia wrote:I didn't quite understand the beef between Jessica Epps and Helbarde. Jessica Epps was in Andermani Space challenging a ship for broadcasting a fake IAN transponder. Why was that any of Epps business? How did Jessica Epps arrive in IAN space and what was she doing there?

All the actions between the two ships occurred in Silesia; from War of Honor, chapter 43:
"Very well," Rabenstrange repeated. "The point I was attempting to make was that so far as I've been able to determine from your reports, neither you nor anyone in your command made any attempt to discover whether or not Duchess Harrington's hypothesis as to what transpired in Zoraster might be accurate before you summarily rejected her offer of a joint investigation."
"Your Grace," Sternhafen sounded dangerously patient, but Rabenstrange decided to let it pass . . . for now, "Harrington will naturally attempt to put the best possible face upon her captain's actions. No doubt you'll argue that I must feel the same temptation in Gortz's case, and you may well be right. However, this particular Manticoran ship had established a clear pattern of arrogance and confrontation in previous encounters with Hellbarde. I believe any fair reading of the Fleet base's file copies of Hellbarde's communication log of Captain Ferrero's previous messages will bear out Kapitän Gortz' view of Ferrero as a dangerously provocative woman.
"When the final encounter between these two ships occurred—in, may I point out, the sovereign territory of a third star nation and definitely not Manticoran territory—Ferrero was clearly maneuvering with the intention of stopping and, at the very least, searching an Imperial-flag merchant vessel proceeding about its lawful concerns. That, at least, was the completely reasonable conclusion of Kapitän der Sternen Gortz. While the testimony of the surviving fire control ratings as to the precise content of the message traffic exchanged between Jessica Epps and Hellbarde may not be conclusive, all three of them agree messages were exchanged. Moreover, all three agree that Kapitän der Sternen Gortz's demand that Ferrero break off her harassment of the vessel in question was not only rejected by her but clearly preceded her decision to open fire upon that vessel.
"Under the circumstances, I repeat, I fail to see what other option Gortz had. In my opinion, Ferrero acted in typical Manticoran fashion, arrogantly assuming—and demanding—that an Imperial warship stand by with its hat literally in its hands while she violated the sovereignty of the Empire's flag. It's my belief that we ought to be discussing posthumous decorations for Kapitän der Sternen Gortz and his crew, not trying to fasten blame for this . . . episode upon them as any so-called 'joint' investigation under Manticoran authority would certainly do."
Rabenstrange stared at him for a long moment, and then the herzog's nostrils flared.
"Graf von Sternhafen," he said, enunciating each word with extreme precision, "while I intend to make all due effort to address you with the courtesy you've reminded me a station commander in His Imperial Majesty's service deserves, you make that extremely difficult. I am interested in getting to the bottom of what happened; as nearly as I can tell, you are primarily interested in justifying Kapitän der Sternen Gortz's actions in their totality. And, I repeat, you apparently made no effort whatsoever to investigate Duchess Harrington's statements or to consider the possibility that, however patriotic and noble he may have been, Kapitän zur Sternen Gortz might—might, I say!—have committed an error in this instance."
"Errors were certainly made, Gross Admiral," Sternhafen replied. "They were not, however, made by Kapitän der Sternen Gortz."
Rabenstrange forced himself not to shout in the other man's face. It was difficult. And not least because the herzog found himself in fundamental disagreement with his imperial cousin's Silesian policy. Despite his own lofty birth and accomplishments, Chien-lu Anderman was not an especially vain man. He saw no point in pretending to be any more modest than he was, either, but he wasn't one of those individuals who worried particularly about what others might think of him or about matters of reputation and "face."
Despite that, he was aware that the Emperor regarded him more as a favored brother than as a mere cousin, and that very few individuals in the Andermani Empire had as much influence with Gustav as he did. But there were limits in all things, and try though he might, he'd been unable to dissuade Gustav from embarking upon his grand adventure in the Confederacy.
Truth to tell, Rabenstrange found it impossible to fault Gustav's basic determination to secure the Empire's legitimate frontiers in Silesia. Unlike the Star Kingdom of Manticore, the Andermani Empire was physically close enough to Silesia to suffer occasional border violations by Silesian pirates and freebooters. That situation had become even worse (although, he admittedly, not enormously so) in the wake of the steady trickle into the Confederacy of outlaw warships which had once belonged to the People's Navy. Which, if one wanted to look at it that way, was at least partly the fault of the Manticorans, since it was their war with the People's Republic which had ultimately created the situation. And whatever implications Silesian instability might have had for the Star Kingdom's merchant marine, that instability offered no direct, immediate threat to the security of Manticore's territory or citizenry at large. The fact that Manticore had presumed for so long to dictate Andermani behavior in Silesia under those circumstances certainly explained the long-standing, deep-seated anti-Manticoran prejudices of old-line wardogs like Sternhafen. For that matter, Rabenstrange himself was far from immune to the same sort of burning anger when some fresh example of Manticoran high handedness fanned the flames.
But this was the wrong way to go about seeking redress. Rabenstrange had argued strenuously against the policy of gradually increasing the pressure on Manticore. Not because he disagreed with Imperial Intelligence's estimates of the fundamental gutlessness of the High Ridge Government, but because of the dangerous potential for provocations to get out of hand and spill over into acts of war. Far better, he'd argued, for the Ministry of State to formally inform the Star Kingdom that the Emperor proposed to press his legitimate security interests in Silesia. Get it all out in the open. Give High Ridge his options and call in the debt the Star Kingdom owed the Empire for the way in which Andermani "neutrality" had favored it in its confrontation with the People's Republic of Haven. And if Manticore persisted in refusing to concede the Empire its just due, then pursue the military option, openly and straightforwardly.
But other counsel had prevailed. Other advisers had convinced Gustav that the application of sufficient pressure would not only inspire a spineless leader like High Ridge to withdraw unilaterally from Silesia but also remind the Confederacy government that resisting his eventual demands might be . . . unwise. And if no explicit demands upon or threats to Manticore were made, then the possibility of accidentally backing someone like High Ridge into a position in which public opinion might force him into a hardline response would be substantially reduced. The belated offer of covert Havenite support which Ambassador Kaiserfest had reported after his conversations with Secretary of State Giancola had been the clinching factor in the triumph of the faction which favored gradually ratcheting up the pressure in Silesia. Rabenstrange's own argument that such a policy offered far more fertile ground for misunderstandings and accidents had been rejected.
And so they had all come to this—to precisely the sort of incident Rabenstrange had feared from the outset might occur. And it was his responsibility to drive the policy he'd argued against through to a successful conclusion.
Which he would. Whether he agreed with it or not was immaterial at this point. But that didn't mean he was prepared to plunge blindly ahead into open warfare with the Star Kingdom if there were any way he could avoid it.
Unfortunately, it was looking more and more as if he might not have that choice. And it was people like Sternhafen, and the recently deceased Gortz, who had made that true.
"Allow me to explain to you, Graf von Sternhafen," he said finally, "that, in the delightfully pithy Manticoran phrase, Kapitän der Sternen Gortz 'screwed the pooch' in a truly spectacular display of stupidity." Sternhafen swelled angrily, but Rabenstrange continued in that same level, biting tone.
"Unlike you, I did conduct a certain amount of research. And I found it trivially simple to confirm that the vessel squawking Sittich's transponder code was not Sittich." Sternhafen stared at him, and Rabenstrange smiled thinly. "I base that statement not simply on the data in Duchess Harrington's message to you, Herr Graf, but also on the data your own vessels secured from the local Silesian security LACs who were in sensor range of the incident. Based upon its observed tonnage alone, the vessel Jessica Epps was moving to intercept was not an Andermani-flag merchant—or, at least, not the one it claimed to be. And since I assume that as a conscientious servant of His Imperial Majesty you've seen to it that all units under your command have current, updated copies of the Registry of Merchant Vessels, I must also assume that it would have been possible for Hellbarde's sensors to establish that that same vessel was squawking a false transponder code . . . and thus violating the sovereignty of our flag in contravention of solemn interstellar law. Given those facts and deductions, I see no reason to doubt the remainder of Duchess Harrington's analysis and explanation. In short, Herr Graf, your 'heroic' Kapitän der Sternen Gortz managed to kill virtually his entire crew and the complete company of a Manticoran heavy cruiser out of sheer, incompetent stupidity, and all in the name of allowing a vessel engaged in the filth and perversion of the interstellar genetic slave trade to escape interception and capture!"
"There's no proof of any such thing!" Sternhafen snapped, but something flickered in his eyes, and Rabenstrange snorted.
"The problem is that there's no proof at all," the herzog shot back. "And because you—you, Herr Graf, and no one else—refused even to consider the possibility that Gortz might have been in error, this entire situation is in the process of spiraling completely out of control."
"I did no more than exercise my legitimate authority as the Empire's representative in Silesia, and I'm prepared to face whatever inquiry His Imperial Majesty may feel appropriate," Sternhafen replied. His effort at noble defiance fell considerably short of total success, and Rabenstrange's lip curled.
"That's very courageous of you, Herr Graf. Unfortunately, His Majesty isn't prepared to have your incredible incompetence aired for all the galaxy to see. Obviously, I've had no time to confer with him on this matter, but the instructions I was given before being sent out here leave me in no doubt as to what the Imperial policy will be in the wake of this incident. By issuing your formal statement 'explaining' the Zoraster Incident, you've committed us to a policy of denying that the Star Kingdom might have acted properly in this case. I can do nothing else, no matter how much I might wish to, because to admit anything else at this late date would look like an act of weakness, rather than the act of strength an immediate and thorough investigation would have been."
"Caving in to the Manticoran version of events would have been the act of weakness!" Sternhafen protested.
"That conclusion," Rabenstrange said coldly and precisely, "is the product of your own stupidity and prejudice against the Star Kingdom. It would have been a simple matter for us to investigate from a position of strength. For us to move in and secure temporary control of the entire Zoraster System in order to be certain all relevant evidence still in the system was preserved. We could have asserted our authority to conduct the investigation ourselves, and I have no doubt whatsoever that High Ridge would have instructed Duchess Harrington to give us a free hand in that investigation . . . which she would have been inclined to do in the first place because, unlike you, she is a decent and open-minded individual. But that concession from High Ridge would have established his government's acceptance of our primacy as the interstellar police force with paramount jurisdiction in this instance, thus granting us equality with the Star Kingdom in dealing with Silesian lawlessness. And when, at the end of our investigation, our report to the galaxy at large didn't attempt to whitewash the actions of our commander on the spot, we would have emerged from the incident as a mature, responsible force in Silesia. Our willingness to admit when we ourselves were the ones at fault would have made us a voice of reason in a region whose anarchy and lack of effective central authority promote outrages like the slave trade which provoked the entire tragic incident. Which, you idiot, would have given us the moral highroad for our annexation of critical territory here as the means of putting an end to that same anarchy!"
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:35 am

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cthia wrote:I meant to ask this question in this thread.

Map for reference.

What makes a fleet base?

Are the same goods and items stored at a base in space as one on land, less warships? How much infrastructure is built in space to support a base? Is it usually located around a moon or planet? Or it depends? I know Blackbird was based on a moon.

What are the advantages/disadvantages? What support is contained at the base? Fuel? Does a base use repair ships or slips? What makes a location appropriate for a fleet base? Must it be inhabited? How much territory is claimed around a fleet base? Territorial limits are given regarding a wormhole, what about bases?
It clearly doesn't need to be an inhabited system since both Seaford-9 and Grendelsbane were fleet based (the later eventually growing into first a repair base and then a construction yard) placed in unihabited systems.

At the minimum I think a fleet base would need:
* a station where ships can dock for at least some limited R&R and to fully power down for maintenance,

* a supply depot with spare parts,

* a supply magazine of missiles, CMs, pods, etc.

* some minor repair facilities to assist ship crews in performing the larger routine maintenance actions or doing limited repairs to get a damaged ship able to head back home. At the very beginning this might just be assigning a mobile repair ship permanently to the base - though that's inefficient compared to putting repair facilities into the fixed station.

* The station would also serve as temporary housing for personnel being transferred to or from ships working out of that base; as well as permanent housing for base personnel.

* Some of those permanent personal should be intelligence folks responsible for keeping a local intel picture, collating the intel provided by any ships based there and any developed 'local' sources, plus updates from ONI, etc. They'd work in collaboration with the assigned fleet's intel officers but they provide both a fixed address to forward information to and provide continuity of knowledge if the fleet gets reassigned.

* Some 'fixed' or permanently assigned defenses

You can of course grow bigger from there, turning it into a more capable repair base (like Hancock Station was before the war), or just scaling up the size fleet it can support by making more and more of the same types of facilities mentioned above.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:03 am

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cthia wrote:Kzt's post allows me an opportunity to fill in some holes in my understanding in all things Honorverse.

Why would the RMN warships need to use the Gregor terminus? Why would the Andermani allow another Navy's warships to use their terminus? Especially if they are going to be antsy about them operating in their territory.

[snip]

I understand the need of a navy to escort its freighters, but I would expect freighters to be allowed passage thru terminii. Not warships. I need to reread that book. I know Honor was passing thru Andy space as well, and hoped she'd be excused. Why was Honor needing passage? What business does she have in Andy space?

Remember that Gregor-A, the uninhabited system where the terminus is, is Manticoran territory. It's Gregor-B, the inhabited system that the other half of the binary pair, that's part of the Andermani Empire. So an RMN warship using the Gregor terminus and heading directly into hyper isn't entering Andermani territorial space. Legally they have exclusive economic control up to the twelve hour limit up to 6 light-hour radius around each of their star-systems (required ability to police it; but the IAN has that) - but even there ships have the right of free passage. It might be a tad impolite to sail your warship through the 12 hour zone of normal space around a less than friendly star-system; but its legal. (Just like the USN and other navies perform "freedom of navigation" operation by sailing through high tension areas while staying, just, in waters they're legally allowed to transit.

There's also a 12 minute limit, 12 light minutes beyond the star's hyper limit where you don't have any right of free passage and the system's owner can dictate which ships are allowed in.

So now that we've established the RMN warships passing through Gregor aren't actually having to pass though Andermani territorial space (even though the occupied and claimed system in all directions are Andermani) - why would they want to. Well its by far the quickest way to that half of Silesia. And except in times of significant tension it's not exactly provocative for a light warship heading for anti-piracy patrols to use Gregor. And even more understandable for such a warship directly convoying freighters making a trading trip from Gregor to Basilisk.

However if tensions go up it'd be an escalation to send a fleet intended to deter the IAN in Silesia through Gregor since it puts them very low travel times to IAN system - raises the stakes all around. That's why when Honor's fleet (and the Protectors Own) were send to Sidemore as a show of force they came through Basilisk instead of Gregor.

All that said, Gregor terminus is right next to an Andermani system and you'd expect the IAN to keep an eye on it. So as kzt says it's be silly to send any secret ship through there, especially one you were trying to keep secret from the IAN. (Heck, just due to the traffic levels, Manticore kept its secret ships away from it's own Junction (well except for the emergency transit to save Basilisk). But the SD(P)s and CLACs slated for Buttercup had traveled to Trevor's Star through hyper rather than taking the quicker trip through the Junction, specifically to keep they away from anybody that might observe their unusual design.


Now, as for why Honor and Wayfarer actually did enter Andermani territorial space on that trip to Silesia - instead of just flying past it. She was pretending to be a merchant and merchants usually stop to trade at Andermani systems between Gregor and Silesia. And why not, those are economically prosperous systems and they're right along the way. It probably would have been more suspicious if she and the freighters she was with didn't stop. And at that point tensions with the Andermani were very low. Heck, normal RMN warships on convoy escort routinely stopped at Andermani systems while their charges trades. In that same book Hawkwing herself stops at New Berlin, the Andermani capital system, because the liner Artemis has a stop there.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:22 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Remember that Gregor-A, the uninhabited system where the terminus is, is Manticoran territory. It's Gregor-B, the inhabited system that the other half of the binary pair, that's part of the Andermani Empire. So an RMN warship using the Gregor terminus and heading directly into hyper isn't entering Andermani territorial space. Legally they have exclusive economic control up to the twelve hour limit up to 6 light-hour radius around each of their star-systems (required ability to police it; but the IAN has that) - but even there ships have the right of free passage. It might be a tad impolite to sail your warship through the 12 hour zone of normal space around a less than friendly star-system; but its legal. (Just like the USN and other navies perform "freedom of navigation" operation by sailing through high tension areas while staying, just, in waters they're legally allowed to transit.

--- snip ---

However if tensions go up it'd be an escalation to send a fleet intended to deter the IAN in Silesia through Gregor since it puts them very low travel times to IAN system - raises the stakes all around. That's why when Honor's fleet (and the Protectors Own) were send to Sidemore as a show of force they came through Basilisk instead of Gregor.

All that said, Gregor terminus is right next to an Andermani system and you'd expect the IAN to keep an eye on it. So as kzt says it's be silly to send any secret ship through there, especially one you were trying to keep secret from the IAN. (Heck, just due to the traffic levels, Manticore kept its secret ships away from it's own Junction (well except for the emergency transit to save Basilisk). But the SD(P)s and CLACs slated for Buttercup had traveled to Trevor's Star through hyper rather than taking the quicker trip through the Junction, specifically to keep they away from anybody that might observe their unusual design.

From Ashes of Victory, chapter 2:
"One thing that did was make it very plain that we've been lax in our security arrangements. They clearly had hellishly good intelligence for most of their ops, and they had to have gotten it someway. 'Neutral shipping' in the Junction probably explains a good bit of it, at least in the case of Basilisk and Trevor's Star. Plain old visual examination can tell them a lot about what they see, and the Government has decided that we simply can't restrict Junction traffic patterns much further. That's the real reason we're cutting down on military Junction transits as much as we can, especially transits by new construction we don't want the Peeps to know about."


Did the Protector's Own use the junction to Basilisk or did it use hyperspace all the way to keep its destination secret?

PS. fixed the URL in the twelve hour limit pointer.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:12 am

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tlb wrote:
Did the Protector's Own use the junction to Basilisk or did it use hyperspace all the way to keep its destination secret?

PS. fixed the URL in the twelve hour limit pointer.

Good question' I don't know.

(And thanks, I went back and fixed the url in my post too. Should have reread it after posting)
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:26 pm

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tlb wrote:Did the Protector's Own use the junction to Basilisk or did it use hyperspace all the way to keep its destination secret?

Jonathan_S wrote:Good question' I don't know.

From War of Honor, chapter 19:
Should I tell them about the Protector's Own? she wondered. There was no real reason she shouldn't . . . except that she and Benjamin had agreed that no one would be told—except Alfredo Yu himself—until the Grayson ships actually reached Silesia. The Protector had decided upon more mature consideration that the simplest way to avoid potential domestic arguments over his decision was simply not to tell anyone about it. As far as the rest of the Navy and the Grayson population at large were concerned, the Protector's Own was merely being dispatched on an extended deep-space training cruise, accompanied by its organic support ships. The primary purpose was to demonstrate its ability to sustain itself out of its own logistic resources in long-distance, independent operations. The fact that its training cruise would just happen to take the entire Protector's Own to the star system where its official commander just happened to have been stationed by the RMN would just happen to be one of those happy coincidences which just happened to happen from time to time.
Besides, as Wesley Matthews had pointed out when his opinion was sought, if someone like Sir Edward Janacek or Simon Chakrabarti knew Grayson was planning to make up the difference in the force levels Honor would require, their response almost certainly would be to see it as an opportunity to reduce the purely Manticoran forces available to her even further.

I think it is unlikely that they would use the junction, not just because of external enemies; but because it needed to be kept quiet from the High Ridge government.
Last edited by tlb on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:54 pm

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The Juntion terminus at Gregor-A was discovered and claimed by Manticore BEFORE the Andermani Empire brought the inhabited planet in the Gregor-B part of the that binary system into the Empire. You would have to guess that the inhabitants of the Gregor-B planet had no idea that there might we a wormhole associated with with either of the stars. I don't recall much in the way of direct discussion but my guess is that Manticore made some agreement with the people of Gregor-B for use of the terminus and the Manticorian soverenty over it and, from War of Honor the AE essentialy left that treaty in-place though I suspect that it was expanded to include AE shipping....you would have to ask the sourse.

Manticore maintains a base in relation to Gregor-A but there doesn't seem to be a habitable (or any usable) planet around Gregor-A but the RMN Base is probably out near the terminus and along with local Astro Control and some variation of a repair yard/base it would have habitats and facilities for warehousing goods in transit and servicing civilian traffic through and to the terminus.

That the AE has at least a consulate location at the Gregor-A installations would be resonable as that is a portal to the SL via the Junction and you can address all sorts of questions and needs of at least incomming shipping before it enters the Empire. And have a courier there all the time (rotating them) with really really really good military grade sensors (in passive mode) vaccuming all the datat they can all the time.

In House of Steel, Roger Winton talks about Manticore's commerical shipbuilding yards and the quality of the product. They are turning out better ships- commercial ships (Michael goes on to talk about expanding that to more Manticorian miliatary ships) but the implication I took away from that was that though they might cost more to build/buy a new Manticorian merchent freighter than the normal Solly one, there were some significant considerations such as better/ newer design (our improved designed) of equipment, durability and effeciences that would translate into lower operating costs. That typicaly leads to more profit on the same fees charged to shippers OR--and this is the "cornering the trade part"- you can charge a bit less and offer better/quicker service and your undercutting all sorts of Transtellars or individual shipping lines from League Member systems.

Why THAT'S UNFAIR you say. How dare they do something faster, cheeper and "gasp" perhaps better, that us? Yeah, and if what your shipping (either way) has to travel using one or two termini of the Manticore Binary Junction, the shipper using a Manticorian flagged (or specifice Manticorian tradeing partners's flagged merchant ships) it can be less expensive.
That's why it's called an advantage. And, yes, it would annoy all sorts of people because it would cut into existing profit margins on existing (and future traffic) because it compeats better. More efficient ships would have had a relativly less impact in the League before the Junction (or at least the 1st wormhole) was discovered because it would have impacted primarily traffic that included legs of travel to and from Manticore and beyond that only what was on MMM going for longer trips into the League. Out in the Haven Quadrant, Manticore MAY have already enjoyed that advantage involving non-league trade in "closer" markets. We don't know. But in the long run, you have to find a level at which it is profitable to opperate and if you can't compeat with X you either have to do something to improve your margins or find a specialty niche that others can't or won't be bothered to compeat in.

I suppose that having a Navy that regularly patrols various trade routes for commerce protection and is not adverse to sort of dawdle along (so as not to outrun merchant shipping of it's own star nation can keep up in dangerous areas) is also an unfair advantage.

It's all in your point of view.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:02 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I meant to ask this question in this thread.

Map for reference.

What makes a fleet base?

Are the same goods and items stored at a base in space as one on land, less warships? How much infrastructure is built in space to support a base? Is it usually located around a moon or planet? Or it depends? I know Blackbird was based on a moon.

What are the advantages/disadvantages? What support is contained at the base? Fuel? Does a base use repair ships or slips? What makes a location appropriate for a fleet base? Must it be inhabited? How much territory is claimed around a fleet base? Territorial limits are given regarding a wormhole, what about bases?
It clearly doesn't need to be an inhabited system since both Seaford-9 and Grendelsbane were fleet based (the later eventually growing into first a repair base and then a construction yard) placed in unihabited systems.

At the minimum I think a fleet base would need:
* a station where ships can dock for at least some limited R&R and to fully power down for maintenance,

* a supply depot with spare parts,

* a supply magazine of missiles, CMs, pods, etc.

* some minor repair facilities to assist ship crews in performing the larger routine maintenance actions or doing limited repairs to get a damaged ship able to head back home. At the very beginning this might just be assigning a mobile repair ship permanently to the base - though that's inefficient compared to putting repair facilities into the fixed station.

* The station would also serve as temporary housing for personnel being transferred to or from ships working out of that base; as well as permanent housing for base personnel.

* Some of those permanent personal should be intelligence folks responsible for keeping a local intel picture, collating the intel provided by any ships based there and any developed 'local' sources, plus updates from ONI, etc. They'd work in collaboration with the assigned fleet's intel officers but they provide both a fixed address to forward information to and provide continuity of knowledge if the fleet gets reassigned.

* Some 'fixed' or permanently assigned defenses

You can of course grow bigger from there, turning it into a more capable repair base (like Hancock Station was before the war), or just scaling up the size fleet it can support by making more and more of the same types of facilities mentioned above.

Thanks! I kept thinking about some sort of docking facility, but didn't know how feasible such plans were. Without a docking facility, any place may as well be used for a base.

Repair ships may not be as efficient but may be safer if the base is overrun. An awful lot of infrastructure is lost in those cases. And probably personnel as well. In the past I questioned the logic of investing so much time and resources on a faraway base which can't be adequately defended during war. I asked long ago how many ships does it take to make a fleet.

One reason I thought the RMN courted planets in Silesia is to establish basing rights. I would assume a fleet base in an inhabited system is preferred, obviously.

Can a repair base effect any type of repair? I suppose the replacement of Warshawki Sails and Tuners is the most difficult, from what I gathered during the yoyoing of Young. LOL

At any rate, isn't some place to dock essentially a space station?

BTW, where exactly is Henke based out of?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:23 am

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:BTW, where exactly is Henke based out of?


Tenth Fleet was based out of Spindle.
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